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From Myrle Krantz <>
Subject Re: Jira Workflow
Date Fri, 01 Jan 2016 16:54:08 GMT
Ross responded to my concern as though it had something to do with voting. It doesn't.


> On 01.01.2016, at 17:34, Greg Stein <> wrote:
> What??
> Your sentence is so meta, with shades of PC, that I don't even know what
> you said.
>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Myrle Krantz <> wrote:
>> Just a little corrective to your perception of my intention:  I did not
>> raise this concern as a defense to my voting suggestion.
>> Greets,
>> Myrle
>> *Myrle Krantz*
>> Solutions Architect
>> RɅĐɅЯ, The Mifos Initiative
>> | Skype: |
>> <>  <>
>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Ross Gardler <>
>> wrote:
>>> Your observations are good ones. Cultural awareness is very important.
>>> The "trick" that I've found to work is to speak and act in a way that
>>> encourages participation. Take the time to send a few sentences
>> indicating
>>> that *EVERYONE* has a voice here and that their voice is of equal weight
>> to
>>> everyone elses.
>>> Voting is not a mechanism that brings consensus. As others have said it
>>> creates divides. There are winners and losers. Furthermore, if the only
>>> person who sees the inherent flaw in the proposal is someone without a
>>> binding vote how can they make a difference in a vote in which their vote
>>> doesn't count and even if it did it would be one against many.
>>> Better is to make it clear that anyone with a concern should raise it.
>>> Then ensure that concern is discussed and addressed to the satisfaction
>> of
>>> the whole community.
>>> The way to make this happen is not to create rules about how decisions
>> are
>>> made. It's to create a culture of sharing and respect. A culture in which
>>> listening and doing is more valuable than talking and defining. It's
>> about
>>> accepting "good enough" is an excellent contribution while incremental
>>> improvements that take us from "good enough" to "even better" are equally
>>> valuable.
>>> You are absolutely correct to worry that this is more difficult in some
>>> cultures than in others. You should continue to do so. Call for specific
>>> input from the community as a whole. Ensure you leave space for people to
>>> contribute how *they* choose to do so. Basically actions within the
>>> community speak much loader than words in a policy or process document.
>>> With that in mind, does anyone here have a feeling for what the right
>>> balance is between process and policy for this community?
>>> Ross
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Myrle Krantz []
>>> Sent: Friday, January 1, 2016 2:48 PM
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: Jira Workflow
>>> I'm actually most concerned about this aspect of making this an Apache
>>> project.
>>> I can't find a fully politically correct way to say this, so to the
>> extent
>>> that I'm replacing individuals with stereotypes, I apologize.  I do know
>>> that people vary from their cultural norms.  I don't know my fellow
>>> contributors very well. I'm asking this in full recognition of my
>>> ignorance, hoping that people who know more will correct me.
>>> Some of our contributors come from cultures with a low power distance and
>>> some come from cultures with a high power distance (US: 40/100, Germany:
>>> 35/100, Netherlands: 38/100, India 77/100)+.
>>> The Apache approach seems to assume that all participants view themselves
>>> as equal, or at least have a realistic view of how their personal merit
>>> allows them to contribute to a discussion.  But it is possible that those
>>> contributors who come from a high-power-distance culture, might allow
>>> themselves to be cut out of a discussion by a gradient of power.
>> Indeed, I
>>> haven't seen many objections coming from our Indian colleagues to what
>>> we've been suggesting. Even though they are more likely to have a
>>> customer-contact informed opinion.
>>> From my American perspective, I believe we need to find a way to
>> encourage
>>> more active participation in these cases.  At the same time based on my
>>> reading, I'm not sure that colleagues who come from a high-power-distance
>>> culture even want a level playing field.  I'm pretty sure it is not
>>> possible to impose a level-playing field if it's unwanted.
>>> So the questions are:
>>> * Is this even true? Are our Indian colleagues (or anyone else)
>>> withholding important reservations? (My source could just be wrong.)
>>>  * Is this really going to be a problem?
>>>    * Is there a way to solve this? Or at least ameliorate it?
>>> Happy New Year from Germany,
>>> Myrle Krantz
>>> + Source "Cultures and Organizations: Software of the Mind" Geert
>>> + Hofstede
>>> and Gert Jan Hofstede pages 43-44
>>> *Myrle Krantz*
>>> Solutions Architect
>>> RɅĐɅЯ, The Mifos Initiative
>>> | Skype:
>>> |
>>> <
>>> <
>>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Ross Gardler <
>>> wrote:
>>>> +1 - no leaders around here, just people doing the work. An ASF
>>>> +project is
>>>> "led" by whoever is active, that means lots of leaders at any one time.
>>>> Those "leaders" are always answerable to the community as a whole.
>>>> This might often seem like it is "nit-picking", it's just a language
>>>> thing in most cases, especially when those doing the work have the
>>>> full (silent) support of the community as a whole. However, if there
>>>> is ever a time that the people doing the work appear to be heading in
>>>> the wrong direction the flat structure of an Apache project becomes
>>>> extremely important. For this reason language is very important.
>>>> Ross
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Greg Stein []
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 1, 2016 3:45 AM
>>>> To:
>>>> Subject: Re: Jira Workflow
>>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Terence Monteiro <
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> the discretion of our
>>>>> (El Capitan) Markus and the consent of our benevolent champion Ross
>>>>> and fellow Mentors, start the year in earnest. What say?
>>>> We are all peers. No Capitan, no Champion, no Mentors.
>>>> Speaking for myself, I won't be a *participant* in the community, but
>>>> will pop in as a guide. Decisions are best made by all of you. I can
>>>> help with describing mechanisms and process (or how to avoid that!).
>>>> Happy New Years!
>>>> -g

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