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From Leo Simons <m...@leosimons.com>
Subject Re: ApacheCon US 2005 (and ApacheCon EU 2005 BOF Session Summary)
Date Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:50:40 GMT
On 09-08-2005 22:15, "J Aaron Farr" <jaaronfarr@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Call For Proposals (CFP) for ApacheCon 2005 ends in a couple of
> days.  To my knowledge, no one has proposed anything for the Excalibur
> project.  So I've got a couple of questions:
> 1. Which Excalibur committers are planning on being at US ApacheCon?
> (I should be there this year).

Raises hand.

> 2. Is there any interest in a session on Excalibur?  If so, what
> aspect?  (This question is open for anyone in the Excalibur community)

Not from me. I feel I know most things about Excalibur already :-P

> 3. There was a BOF session for Excalibur at the Europe ApacheCon.  How
> did it go?  Would we like to do another one in December?

It was rather interestering and I think we cleared up some things for some
people, but it turned out we didn't have all that much to discuss. Excalibur
"is there", "needs to be there", and "mostly works". I know most of our
"client" projects at apache are not expecting nor desiring much "innovation"
from this corner of the universe.

I know there's also some people like Hammett who still have new or untried
ideas in the IoC container space, but none of those people were at the BOF.

I forgot I took some notes and should post them. Here it goes...


Peter Royal and me came up with doing the BOF after I spoke to several
concerned avalon (mainly phoenix and merlin) users at ApacheCon. None of
them actually made it to the BOF unfortunately (I heard some of those guys
ended up at a ATP (tennis) party with free beer), but there were people from
cocoon, turbine, james, excalibur, and one or two other interested people. I
think about 20 people in total.

Peter and I summarised recent history and "the current state of affairs",
which I presume I don't have to re-iterate here, since we're all part of
that :-). "This stuff is now there, that stuff is now there, you actually
have commit access if you need it, this is what happened, these people are
now doing that". Etc.

There was some discussion and Q&A related to all that.

I asked people for what their plans are with Excalibur (or even bits from
Avalon). From memory:
  - Turbine: uses avalon-framework in many places and will continue to do
    so. Probably won't migrate from YAAFI to something else.
  - James: doesn't know yet, but at least avalon-framework will stay around.
    They still use phoenix. They're eyeing other solutions such as OSGi. I
    got the feeling that james is very much about "what works works" and are
    not going to change much until there is something new that "works" and
    presents a real improvement (also based on talking with Noel).
  - Cocoon: cocoon 2.1 uses ECM. Cocoon 2.2 uses their own ECM derivative.
    Cocoon is moving to OSGi as the "coarse grained" architecture. They are
    likely to have dozens of components around for many years that are based
    on avalon-framework, either using ECM, their own avalon container, or
    some other IoC (or non-IOC!) solution.
    Cocoon needs Excalibur to be around, but they're not very likely to want
    to accept or roll with radical changes.

We made a short list of issues that would be nice to get addressed. Some
comments added from memory.


-> javadocs are lost

    -> put back up the javadocs (which are linked to, eg
       right @ avalon.apache.org)
        -> or rewrite to elsewhere
        -> or look at access logs to see what urls people are hitting and
add redirects

Apparently the javadocs we have online are incomplete. Also, the javadocs
for phoenix are being dearly missed. Having online javadocs for something
like "latest released version" for *all* avalon and excalibur projects
(retired or not) as well as javadocs for "the excalibur trunk" would help a
lot of people. In addition, since about "n" releases of projects like cocoon
and james have hardwired references to avalon.apache.org subdirectories for
their javadocs, it would be great to restore all that at the original

-> Add logkit back to excalibur website (primarily docs)

Where'd the logkit docs go?? And it needs to be more visible.

-> Release latest versions of everything
    -> Already underway

This would be welcome. All represented "client" projects that use excalibur
stuff said they would want to upgrade to new stable releases of our

-> where next?

    -> new features (cocoon blocks)
    -> no new features (don't fix it!)
    -> roll your own
        -> or not, eg turbine fulcrum
        -> just use lifecycle eg A-F
    -> use pico
        -> pico runs avalon components

Peter and I iterated some paths into the future for both excalibur and
excalibur "clients". I felt that the general reaction in the group to most
of these was *shrug*.

  -> Promote OSGi/Oscar as a proper successor after incubation?

I think it was Carsten who explained at this point how that doesn't quite
fly. An OSGi block is a "big thing". You don't use OSGi as you use ECM.

-> OSGi manifests in a jarfile. Sure!

    -> can we transform .sar files into OSGi bundles?
       No-one knows. Perhaps. (o, .sar files are the "bundle format" phoenix


Everyone who was there, please chime in with additions or correction :-)



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