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From "Bechauf, Michael" <michael.bech...@sap.com>
Subject Re: ESME as Micro App on EcoHub?
Date Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:21:53 GMT
Ethan, 

the issue of ESME/E2.0 integration with SAP/ERP that I raised was meant exactly for that reason:
Is there something worth investing for both SAP as well as the ESME team ? The answer, as
I see right now, is "no", so I agree with you that it is a fact of life that nobody will bring
forth any time, money or resources if there is neither a personal or business return-of-investment.


I am glad, though, that Dennis has picked up the ball and is articulating the possible interactions
between E2.0 and ERP. I am looking forward to his part 2 blog, in the hopes that we'll find
a way to continue on a mutual beneficial path (which may, of course, not exclude that individuals
who are associated with SAP may invest their personal time on ESME that has nothing to do
with SAP). Dennis has a vast amount of business process expertise, so if Dennis and the other
Irregulars can't find anything of real value, then I don't know who will.

Regarding statements that I perceive as provocative: Well, to say that "the SAP partner program
kills innovation" is provocative in my book. We've already done a lot in a year, such as like
totally relaxing our policies regarding contributing to open source as well as providing the
SAP developer license and Code Exchange which are all meant for individual developers. I know
there is so much more work that needs to be done, but rather than just saying how bad things
are, please help us figure out appropriate ways to present a business case for individual
developers based on areas of innovation that individuals can pursue, and that makes sense
for EcoHub, which is mostly a tool for SAP customers to discover value-add products and services
that works with their ERP system. 

As I said, I'm happy to continue this discussion in a place such as the SAP Mentor Forum that
is more approrpiate than the ESME dev list. I don't think we should be discussing legal agreements
and fee structure for SAP programs here.

Best,
Michael


----- Original Message -----
From: Ethan Jewett <esjewett@gmail.com>
To: esme-dev@incubator.apache.org <esme-dev@incubator.apache.org>
Sent: Wed Jan 06 12:30:48 2010
Subject: Re: ESME as Micro App on EcoHub?

Michael,

I think the comment you are responding to was made in reference to the
difficulty of a specific proposal: participation of ESME in EcoHub.

To your points, obviously the SAP partner program is designed in the
way it is for reasons. Some of those reasons are good reasons. However
it's not helpful to minimize the difficulties that program presents to
small and non-traditional partners. It is not only the legal
agreements that are at issue, but also the substantial fees and the
level of pure effort necessary to become part of these programs. I
don't see Anne's statement as provocative at all, but simply a fact of
life.

I don't really see the SAP-bashing that you seem to be seeing here.
Unless I'm mistaken, the ESME community is one of the public
communities most involved with and sympathetic to SAP. We are a
community of individuals, so some individuals will have different
views, of course, and people need to understand that and judge the
community with that in mind.

I speak for myself, but I'm sure we are all interested in (eager, in
fact) engaging SAP and helping understand how this type of tool (ESME)
can fit into the SAP ecosystem, but we have a limited amount of time
and no money, so I (at least as an ESME team member) am unwilling to
spend a huge amount of time and effort on work to engage with SAP when
that work doesn't add value to the ESME effort. That's just the way it
is. Another fact of life, so to speak.

Ethan

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Bechauf, Michael
<michael.bechauf@sap.com> wrote:
> I don't think the ESME list is the place to have these conversations, particularly because
I don't think ESME is relevant right now. As long as it's not clear what an ERP customer would
do with ESME (and who would actually productize it), it's kind of a moot point.
>
> As to "SAP's current partner program kills innovation from smaller companies and individual
devs". That is a nice provocative statement, and I would agree that the burden of signing
SAP legal requirements are high, but let's not forget that there is a flip side to this, which
is that SAP customers are also demanding service level requirements for support etc that often
individual developers can't fulfill. Also, open source is an issue; as long as there are lawsuits
brought against entities that use open source, who is going to indemnify SAP customers that
they don't have to worry about those lawsuits ? See http://bit.ly/6knHsr, for example, which
is just a recent example related to violation of the copyright terms of GPL, but there are
other examples like patent infringement lawsuits related to OS software as well.
>
> I am getting a little tired of the SAP bashing because apples are compared to oranges:
An app store for iPhone is a place where consumers can buy stuff; it's a volume business and
the requirements of running a game or a useful utility on an iPhone is obviously not as stringent
as connecting something to an SAP system. There may be a volume business for SAP as well,
like Flash islands for cool visualizations, but as long as there is no clear area where SAP
can carve out a niche that can somehow justify lower barriers of entry, the requirements are
the same.
>
> At the same time, there is a chicken-egg problem; individual developers will hardly let
their creativity flow as long as there is not even an incentive to be creative.
>
> Happy to discuss further at a different place if anybody is interested.
>
> Best,
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Hirsch [mailto:hirsch.dick@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, Jan 06, 2010 4:46 AM
> To: esme-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: ESME as Micro App on EcoHub?
>
> @Mark: Can you find out exactly what Usman meant about certification
> of microapps? Is certification really not necessary? Would ESME
> qualify as a microapp?
>
> As Apache ESME, we probably couldn't place ESME on EcoHub. This
> wouldn't be possible, because we aren't a SAP partner. We - Apache
> ESME -  probably aren't going to be able to change EcoHub's partner
> requirement. However, this fact doesn't mean that someone else who is
> an SAP Partner could take ESME, combine it with SAP-specific
> functionality and place it on the EcoHub.  This should be our goal.
> The question is finding an SAP partner who would be willing to make
> such a commitment.
>
> D.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Anne Kathrine Petterøe
> <yojibee@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I agree with Mrinal here.
>> Being a partner edge customer is no small barrier to cross. As partner edge customer
you are committed to a transaction of SAP software licenses, there are program fees, in addition
to ongoing requirements. The Extended Business Program maybe yes. SAP's current partner program
kills innovation from smaller companies and individual devs in my opinion. The barrier for
entry is so high, there is no way a startup which bootstraps would be able to finance it.
Or are we missing something here?
>>
>> Furthermore we don't have any SAP specific code in ESME at the moment (it doesn't
even run on NetWeaver currently).
>> EcoHub might be interesting down the line though.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anne
>>
>>
>> On 6. jan. 2010, at 10.49, Mrinal Wadhwa wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> From what I remember from Mentor discussions with the Ecohub team at TechEd
>>> given that you need to be a parter to be listed ..its a pretty high barrier
>>> .. are you saying there is a possibility to somehow make that work for ESME
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Mrinal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 6:52 AM, Finnern, Mark <mark.finnern@sap.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi ESME folks,
>>>>
>>>> Talked to Usman at SAP today and he reminded me of the SAP Micro
>>>> Applications that are now offered on the SAP EcoHub:
>>>> http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/ecohub/enterprisemicroapps
>>>>
>>>> "Enterprise Micro Applications are a new breed of small applications
>>>> that simplify and extend enterprise application functionality specific
>>>> to a user's role and requirements."
>>>>
>>>> Usman told me, that these micro apps don't necessarily need to be
>>>> certified to be listed. I think you need to be a partner edge customer,
>>>> but it sounds to me like the barrier to play on EcoHub is much lower and
>>>> I would love to see ESME offered there.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know what you think, Mark.
>>>> Mark Finnern Chief Community Evangelist C +1 415/425/3296 E
>>>> mark.finnern@sap.com T http://twitter.com/finnern Mentors
>>>> http://sapmentors.sap.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
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