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From Alex Karasulu <>
Subject [VOTE] Re: Re: Web site ready - give it a try
Date Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:17:24 GMT
Hello all,

Oh boy, I figured I'd have to reply to this thread at some point.  
Nicola you opened a can of worms for us again :).  Hopefully we 
can put it to rest this time.

Nicola you made some good points and I agree with most of them 
namely points #1 and #2 about the incubator disclaimer and the
alternate banner respectively.

The name changes well, I repectfully disagree.  Initially users 
may wonder what these subprojects entail and that's what the
introduction sections and "What is it?" sections offer in a couple
of brief sentences.  I don't think the barrier to newbies that
you're citing is really that great.  This is where I disagree with
you and Noel.  I'm not worried about people finding us and being
able to map a project name to an initiative.  This by far is one of
our lesser (trivial) concerns.  Furthermore the names IMO are 
attractive enough and meaningful enough under a directory umbrella
to warrant closer inspection and this has more value.  Sure we could 
call it just another LDAP server or just another BER codec but 
where's the fun in that.  I say give the people, who are sweating
it, the room to be a little creative.  It's the least we can do for
those who deal with a hard days work, then come home to grok what 
they love.  Please don't take that spice in their lives away.

More importantly, is the message sent to the community forming around 
this project.  We as a collective voted on the Eve name in particular 
and unofficially agreed on the other names as well.  If the vote 
taken is not binding then we make those involved feel like their votes, 
opinions, and passions don't count.

Let's be frank.  Although we find no need to openly express our 
pride in these names, they do "turn us on".  We derive emotional value
from them.  This drives us to struggle forward when we're confronted with
major problems or are just worn out.  At the heart of this community
there is a sense of doing more than just writing code.  We're here
to continue on the Apache tradition, to create some technology and
make a positive impact for everyone for free.  The names we have chosen
summarize these aspirations in one word, one name.  Each one of us has 
some joy, some pride, in them as a community.  

Plus these names have already been engrained in our culture.  We use
then all the time.  Those outside of the project already refer to 
Eve and to Snickers for example.  These names have history and meaning 
to us even if they immediately do not to others looking in.  Even with 
the most tangential look, most outsider do get it.  And when they do 
the names become indelable. 

Take for example Snickers.  A member of the old LDAPd group came up 
with it when he was hungry.  He was also thinking about how to replace 
SNACC4J.  He (Robb Penoyer) decided to call the replacement (or whatever 
he thought it may eventually become) Snickers.  That's what we referred 
to whenever we spoke about a SNACC4J replacement.  The name was given 
with some pride from a committer.  Robb while he was with us, put his 
heart into it a little more than usual.  Perhaps he'll come back and 
become active again if not for anything else but for the birth name 
he gave to the subproject.  Every one that worked on it afterwords liked 
the Snickers name as well: it was very catchy.  We have entire 
conversations about the name that leads to more comradery within the 
group.  I don't want to take that away from this community.  Again the 
satisfaction or pride in the name is nothing that needs to be publically 
announced - it's just something close to our hearts that makes us 
passionate hence makes us persistant enough to tackle some very grueling 
problems.  Hey just to be clear my wife hates the name Snickers :), but 
its what we decided would stick.  This we decided together as a team.  
The point is each name came from somewhere deep within this project.  To 
change that at this point would hurt the community.

Bringing up the topic of changing them is ok and natural but we've 
gone through it before.  Can we all agree to lay it to rest until a
couple years from now.  If a vote needs to be taken then we can do so.  
Ironically within the naming and directory project perhaps we first 
need to vote to lay this resurgent naming issue to rest.  That way 
community members feel like their past votes have merit.

With respect to the other points made by you Nicola I'm a +1 on points 
1 and 2:

1. concerning the rearrangement of the incubator disclaimer
2. the alternate banner

So to once and for all tackle point #3 let's just do that and take a 

[X] lay the naming issue to rest for now until two or more years
[ ] take yet another vote to change names and site navigation accordingly

As you can see, I vote to lay this to rest so I can get back to the code
and to topics of technology.  My time is precious and finite.  I don't 
want to waste time every quarter debating over lengthy email trails 
whether or not these names should be changed.


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