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From Werner Keil <werner.k...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Clients
Date Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:16:21 GMT
Heavy-hitting in which sense? As mentioned, CLDR usually acts behind the
scenes, rarely noticed, even more rarely appreciated, despite everyone from
Microsoft to Apple or  Google use it. When there's another chance to meet
Mark Davis, I'd ask him how many actual committers maintain it in regular
intervals, but it certainly is not a full-time job for many of them.

Thanks for letting us know. Helping both several JSRs and the EC (just had
another 2h "board" call there) I know it can be a bit time-consuming over
time, so I respect your decison. We'll see, who may step in with regards to
the board. Bertrand was re-elected as board member recently, so while he
just mentioned the graduated projects don't participate in board meetings
that much (except if a PMC VP had to be replaced which is the case if you
confirm your decision to leave, otherwise there's lesser communication to
the board than the community) if he was kind enough to help he might be a
good person at least for some time. Among those willing to help Volkan is
on his way to be a committer. Just need to wrap up the vote. It may never
become a huge project with Dozens or Hundreds of committers, let's see, but
then the likes of CLDR maintained their data for 20 years now. WURFL was
around for at least a decade or so before it was withdrawn from the
community (and to update my recent DeviceMap article I checked their "Free
Entry level offer", it is restricted to not-for-profits, so strictly
speaking, as soon as your blog or site was to make money even from AdSense,
you'd violate their terms of use;-)

Cheers,
Werner

On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 7:31 PM, Reza Naghibi <rezan@apache.org> wrote:

> I think its best to focus on the current project and how to move it
> forward. Using heavy hitting projects like CLDR as a guide for us is just
> more hand waving.
>
> I've pretty much washed my hands of this project and will announce my
> departure soon. Don't worry, this decision was made weeks ago, I just
> haven't had the time to put together my announcement, but I guess this is a
> start.
>
> What you (and others) should start focusing on now is next months board
> report and what the roadmap is for this project. Then of course you need to
> execute. Citing other projects wont help you here.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Werner Keil <werner.keil@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Speaking of CLDR, I forgot Apache Commons Lang in its 3rd iteration:
> > http://commons.apache.org/proper/commons-lang/
> > It still supports java.util.Date/Calendar (also backed by CLDR) despite
> > brand new java.time available.
> > Maybe there's going to be apache.commons.lang4 based on Java 8.0+ some
> day,
> > but they haven't even started any effort on that;-)
> > Commons-lang SVN however is a perfect example for multiple branches:
> > http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/commons/proper/lang/
> >
> > The 1.0 branch can be considered true "legacy" as it wasn't updated in 7
> > years. The 2.0 branch saw at least some activity, maybe bugfixes till
> about
> > a year ago.
> > And trunk is the 3.0 branch.
> >
> > CLDR shows how a vast repository can be maintained simply via a ticket
> > system (Trac) and source code (also SVN),
> > http://cldr.unicode.org/development/editing-cldr-spec shows how they do
> it
> > like that.
> >
> > So if you're really committed to committing to improved versions of data,
> > clients or both, please go ahead, otherwise feel free to use data from
> > another set of clients.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Werner Keil <werner.keil@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Nobody is off track, and just look at CLDR, there are 4 competing Java
> > > clients, some older some recently added (but also with a nearly 10 year
> > > "legacy" see JSR 310) to Java 8.
> > > Neither of them is abandoned, so any project (inside and outside
> > > Apache.org) is free to implement APIs and standards that exist (such as
> > W3C
> > > DDR standard;-) or
> > > do something else.
> > >
> > > Chose where you want to do this, either at Apache or in your own
> project,
> > > Bertrand stated the options or contraints for doing that already.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Reza Naghibi <rezan@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> You are getting way off track again. The issue has *never* been
> > supporting
> > >> multiple clients in different languages. Multi language support via a
> > >> standard specification is the cornerstone of what I have proposed in
> > 2.0.
> > >> The issue has *always* been the legacy OpenDDR Java client which seems
> > to
> > >> always pop up and disrupt the progress of this project.
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Werner Keil <werner.keil@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Interesting, so WebDriver has also become a W3C spec.
> > >> > The GitHub project https://github.com/seleniumhq/selenium
> > >> > shows how this W3C standard is supported by multiple languages.
> > >> >
> > >> > It seems a bit more strict on some atrributes and terms than W3C
> DDR,
> > >> but
> > >> > otherwise the two written specs are not so different after all.
> > >> > The way this is handled in at least 5 major programming languages
> can
> > be
> > >> > seen as a good example on how to do this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Oh and an inspiration for screen-size and similar size properties
> can
> > be
> > >> > found under:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> https://w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-spec.html#dictionary-windowsize-members
> > >> >
> > >> > CSS3 knows a variety of units, mainly for length, but also others
> like
> > >> > duration (for animation) and more, so as mentioned earlier, why not
> > also
> > >> > follow these when we store similar measurements in a 2.x repository?
> > >> >
> > >> > Werner
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Werner Keil <werner.keil@gmail.com
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > One project best compared to DeviceMap and the DDR would be CLDR,
> > the
> > >> > > Unicode Common Data Repository: http://cldr.unicode.org/
> > >> > > It is one of the most widely used, but at the same time most
> > >> > > underestimated projects many "sexy" and popular ones use but
hide
> > well
> > >> > > behind the scenes.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Hence, speaking about it barely ever happens (I proposed a talk
> > around
> > >> > > Eclipse Babel and Unicode a while ago which was turned down for
> > being
> > >> not
> > >> > > interesting enough;-)
> > >> > > Nevertheless the biggest names in the industry from Apple to
> Google,
> > >> IBM
> > >> > > or (yep also) Adobe certainly use it and some are active
> > contributors.
> > >> > > When met Bertrand in Zurich a while ago, Google was represented
by
> > >> > Unicode
> > >> > > co-founder Mark Davis.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The repository is also based on XML though JSON extracts exist,
> but
> > >> they
> > >> > > are merely for convenience, not the driving data source as of
now.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Java alone has at least 2 or 3 different clients;-D The JDK has
> 2(!)
> > >> > > competing APIs alone, java.util.Date and Calendar as well as
> > java.time
> > >> > > since Java 8. Both use CLDR data converted by Sun/Oracle. While
> > ICU4J,
> > >> > the
> > >> > > IBM lead "official" Java API for Unicode does the same in a
> slightly
> > >> > > different way. No real battle between them. ICU4J influenced
a few
> > >> > patches
> > >> > > and fixes of the JDK equivalents. And you can be pretty sure,
> > Eclipse
> > >> or
> > >> > > Apache (Harmony) plus derived work like Android won't give up
the
> > >> > > "old-fashioned" ICU4J (that's at least how Stephen Colebourne,
a
> > main
> > >> > > committer to "java.time" called it) and all jump the java.time
> > >> bandwagon
> > >> > > even if they use Java 8 already.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Cheers,
> > >> > > Werner
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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