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From "Paul DeCoursey" <p...@decoursey.net>
Subject Re: (frustrated torque first timer) Please update the Tutorial
Date Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:50:00 GMT
Ummm... I'm a relatively new user and for those of you that think the 
Tutorial is good I have to say I think you are nuts.  It took me two 
weeks to make sense of it.  There is good info in there but it's not  well
thought out, and it doesn't match the actual releases. There was a  steep
learning curve to get it going, but once I did it all clicked.  When I
look at it now I think it's fine but for two weeks I was lost  and could
find no help. The tutorial should be able to stand on it's  own, I
shouldn't have to join the list and beg for help.

Paul

On Jul 6, 2005, at 3:26 PM, Brent Atkins wrote:

> I'm in agreement with what most of you have said.  I agree that the  sample
> app in the tutorial is really good, and I wouldn't change it even if I
weren't so lazy.
> To me the biggest kicker for it seems to be the amount of knowledge  that a
> person has to have in order to accurately use the tutorial.  By no 
means do
> I want to disparage the great work done by stephenh, mpoeschl, seade,
quintonm, dlr, or Thomas - but I do want to tweak a few things here and
there in Step 1 and Step 2 - plus a couple of very minor tweaks in  Step
3.
> I'll make the changes and post them somewhere (is here the best place  or
> should I email directly to a submitter?).
> So rest assured I am not planning on rewriting the whole thing from 
scratch.
> It's too good to toss, and I'm much too lazy to do that anyway.  I  just
plan
> on massaging it here and there until even a dope like me can
> understand it.
> If you like it, wonderful.  If you don't it's not gonna make me cry.  
Well,
> only a little... :)
> If someone can tell me what the conceptual difference between a 
Tutorial and
> a User Guide is, I'll be happy to take a look at it too.
> (Did I really just volunteer to do all of this?  My wife is gonna kill
me...)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Klein [mailto:matthias@cmklein.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:05 PM
> To: 'Apache Torque Users List'
> Subject: RE: (frustrated torque first timer) Please update the Tutorial
I agree that the tutorial right now is quite good already.
> However, as a torque newbie I ran across most of the issues that Yong
mentioned as well. (I even asked for help about one of the issues and 
got an
> immediate and very helpful response. Thanks!) So if someone is willing 
to do
> some work on the tutorial I suggest simply stick with the example
application introduced there and just "streamline"
> the instructions:
> - Relocate some additional information (like: click here if you want  to
know
> more about this)
> - Add some more instructions on certain issues (see posting of Yong) -
Make the tutorial more a whole thing again (one can see that it has a
great core yet has been patched a bit too often)
> But over all: the tutorial including the sample application is almost 
great.
> I believe it does not take too much work to make it really super. Matt
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Fischer [mailto:tfischer@apache.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:25 PM
>> To: Apache Torque Users List
>> Subject: Re: (frustrated torque first timer) Please update the
>> Tutorial
>> Hi,
>> We do have a problem with documentation in Toque, I agree to that. In
my opinion, however, the tutorial is not the problem (although there
might be a few unclear points). The real problem is the very patchy
users guide.
>> I remember I have tried to follow the tutorial when Torque
>> 3.1.1 was released, and I did not have a problem to get the sample
application running, when I followed exactly the steps outlined in the
tutorial. The problems uually arise when one plays around a bit (to
learn more about the framework), and one inserts some errors which are
not easy to notice.
>> However, when I tried to follow the tutorial, I did not start from the
very beginning, which made things easier. I remember it was a hassle
setting up maven, and maybe I already had the driver at the right
place.
>> When releasing Torque 3.1.1, the tutorial was improved very much from the
>> 3.1 version. I still remember the wekly posts on the mailing lists
about the errors in the tutorial; they have reduced to about two posts
in half a year after 3.1.1. From that I conclude that the tutorial is
quite ok now.
>> Yong, thanks for noting some of the weak points in the tutorial. I will
look at the point you critisize and see how it can be improved. There
is just one thing I can answer without some research: the postgresql
create-db task is not working in all circumstances (no idea whether it
works in any circumstances at all), but creating the db manually is
fine.
>> In some databases (e.g. oracle) Torque does not even try to create the db.
>> I will add a remark on that.
>> Brent, I appreciate very much you willing to rewrite the tutorial. But
(as you might have noticed) I am of the opinion that the Tutorial as it
is now is far too good to be simply thrown away. However, if you have
ideas of particular points that can be improved, I'll be glad to hear
them.
>> Bill, some plans exist to release Torque 3.2 in the not-so-far future.
It will contain the ant build scripts again as an alternative to maven.
>> However, I am unsure whether this should be put into the tutorial at all.
>> Maybe there should be two tutorials, one for ant and one for maven. But
this is not thought to the end yet.
>> All I have written here is my own personal opinion, I hope nobody feels
offended. If you disagre with me, I'd be happy to hear about it on the
users mailing list.
>>         Thomas
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