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From "Brent Atkins" <Brent.Atk...@pro-sys.biz>
Subject RE: (frustrated torque first timer) Please update the Tutorial
Date Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:26:10 GMT
I'm in agreement with what most of you have said.  I agree that the sample
app in the tutorial is really good, and I wouldn't change it even if I
weren't so lazy.

To me the biggest kicker for it seems to be the amount of knowledge that a
person has to have in order to accurately use the tutorial.  By no means do
I want to disparage the great work done by stephenh, mpoeschl, seade,
quintonm, dlr, or Thomas - but I do want to tweak a few things here and
there in Step 1 and Step 2 - plus a couple of very minor tweaks in Step 3.
I'll make the changes and post them somewhere (is here the best place or
should I email directly to a submitter?).

So rest assured I am not planning on rewriting the whole thing from scratch.
It's too good to toss, and I'm much too lazy to do that anyway.  I just plan
on massaging it here and there until even a dope like me can understand it.
If you like it, wonderful.  If you don't it's not gonna make me cry.  Well,
only a little... :)

If someone can tell me what the conceptual difference between a Tutorial and
a User Guide is, I'll be happy to take a look at it too.

(Did I really just volunteer to do all of this?  My wife is gonna kill

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Klein [mailto:matthias@cmklein.de] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:05 PM
To: 'Apache Torque Users List'
Subject: RE: (frustrated torque first timer) Please update the Tutorial

I agree that the tutorial right now is quite good already.
However, as a torque newbie I ran across most of the issues that Yong
mentioned as well. (I even asked for help about one of the issues and got an
immediate and very helpful response. Thanks!) So if someone is willing to do
some work on the tutorial I suggest simply stick with the example
application introduced there and just "streamline"
the instructions:
- Relocate some additional information (like: click here if you want to know
more about this)
- Add some more instructions on certain issues (see posting of Yong)
- Make the tutorial more a whole thing again (one can see that it has a
great core yet has been patched a bit too often)

But over all: the tutorial including the sample application is almost great.
I believe it does not take too much work to make it really super. 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Fischer [mailto:tfischer@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:25 PM
> To: Apache Torque Users List
> Subject: Re: (frustrated torque first timer) Please update the 
> Tutorial
> Hi,
> We do have a problem with documentation in Toque, I agree to that. In 
> my opinion, however, the tutorial is not the problem (although there 
> might be a few unclear points). The real problem is the very patchy 
> users guide.
> I remember I have tried to follow the tutorial when Torque
> 3.1.1 was released, and I did not have a problem to get the sample 
> application running, when I followed exactly the steps outlined in the 
> tutorial. The problems uually arise when one plays around a bit (to 
> learn more about the framework), and one inserts some errors which are 
> not easy to notice.
> However, when I tried to follow the tutorial, I did not start from the 
> very beginning, which made things easier. I remember it was a hassle 
> setting up maven, and maybe I already had the driver at the right 
> place.
> When releasing Torque 3.1.1, the tutorial was improved very much from 
> the
> 3.1 version. I still remember the wekly posts on the mailing lists 
> about the errors in the tutorial; they have reduced to about two posts 
> in half a year after 3.1.1. From that I conclude that the tutorial is 
> quite ok now.
> Yong, thanks for noting some of the weak points in the tutorial. I 
> will look at the point you critisize and see how it can be improved. 
> There is just one thing I can answer without some research: the 
> postgresql create-db task is not working in all circumstances (no idea 
> whether it works in any circumstances at all), but creating the db 
> manually is fine.
> In some databases (e.g. oracle) Torque does not even try to create the 
> db.
> I will add a remark on that.
> Brent, I appreciate very much you willing to rewrite the tutorial. But 
> (as you might have noticed) I am of the opinion that the Tutorial as 
> it is now is far too good to be simply thrown away. However, if you 
> have ideas of particular points that can be improved, I'll be glad to 
> hear them.
> Bill, some plans exist to release Torque 3.2 in the not-so-far future. 
> It will contain the ant build scripts again as an alternative to 
> maven.
> However, I am unsure whether this should be put into the tutorial at 
> all.
> Maybe there should be two tutorials, one for ant and one for maven. 
> But this is not thought to the end yet.
> All I have written here is my own personal opinion, I hope nobody 
> feels offended. If you disagre with me, I'd be happy to hear about it 
> on the users mailing list.
>         Thomas
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