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From Geir Magnusson Jr <g...@4quarters.com>
Subject Re: DTD files
Date Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:46:15 GMT

On Mar 21, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:

> I am in favor of XSD just because of all the tool support for it. 
> RelaxNG doesn't have that, yet.

I'm in favor of DTD because of all the tool support you need for XSD :)


> -Brian
> On Mar 21, 2005, at 2:46 PM, Matthew T. Adams wrote:
>> I would like to see an XSD.  I don't think that it's that hard to 
>> read,
>> plus the tools out there are really good nowadays to provide 
>> completion
>> of elements and attributes.
>> I'd like to stay away from RelaxNG, only because I don't see the XSD 
>> as
>> being too hard.
>> Just my $0.02.
>> --matthew
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Craig Russell [mailto:Craig.Russell@Sun.COM]
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:34 AM
>>> To: jdo-dev@db.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: DTD files
>>> Hi Brian,
>>> We have discussed in the JDO expert group that the standard will be
>>> published as xsd, but I haven't had time to make the change in
>>> the spec
>>> itself. The idea I had (which might be completely whack) is to 
>>> publish
>>> the xsd as the norm, and the DTD as non-normative. It is much
>>> easier to
>>> read a tight DTD than the equivalent xsd IMHO.
>>> So far, we have not had a need to make the jdo and orm doctypes more
>>> expressive than we can accomplish using DTD. In other words,
>>> there's no
>>> technical reason to drive toward xsd.
>>> If RelaxNG is suitable for use in Apache, I'd entertain using it for
>>> our purposes. Do  you have details on its closure?
>>> Craig
>>> On Mar 21, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Brian Topping wrote:
>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>> Yes, this is good.  I'll take a look at that.  From the conference
>>>> call week back (sorry I missed everyone this week), we were
>>>> considering that the public metadata specs ought to be in
>>> XSD, without
>>>> DTD.  What do you think of that?  I'm not a big DTD user, so I don't
>>>> know what the reasons are that people commonly want to use
>>> them.  The
>>>> advantages of using XSD are that there is only one spec, that XSD is
>>>> much more expressive, and it can be parsed with standard XML tools.
>>>> If we are still going to maintain a DTD, I would suggest
>>> that it is a
>>>> mistake to develop an XSD that is not a machine translation of the
>>>> DTD, because no XSD is a better answer than an incorrect XSD
>>> resulting
>>>> from not being maintained.  And if we are going to do a machine
>>>> translation, I'd just suggest putting Trang into the build
>>> and make it
>>>> a build-time artifact rather than checking it it.  It's a pretty
>>>> slippery slope if we don't want to stay focused on XSD.
>>>> Another alternate is to use RelaxNG, which is reasonably expressive,
>>>> can be written in XML (so it is can be parsed), and can be machine
>>>> translated into both DTD and XSD.  It is not as expressive
>>> as XSD, but
>>>> if I remember correctly, there are only a couple of XSD
>>> constructions
>>>> that can't be done in it.  It does add the RelaxNG closure to the
>>>> dependencies though.
>>>> Comments anyone?
>>>> -b
>>>> Craig Russell wrote:
>>>>> Team,
>>>>> As I was checking in the dtd files for jdo2 (jdo.dtd and orm.dtd) I
>>>>> had to think again about where we should put the official
>>> PUBLIC dtd
>>>>> files. For JDO 1, it was clear that the site should be Sun. For JDO
>>>>> 2, I believe that the answer still should be Sun, because the JCP
>>>>> officially owns the IP to the dtd (and xml schema once we have that
>>>>> in place).
>>>>> Does anyone think that we should change the official web
>>> location to
>>>>> some other place like the Apache web site?
>>>>> Brian,
>>>>> The dtd files I checked in reflect the latest JDO specification
>>>>> draft. I understand you're interested in converting these to .xsd.
>>>>> The last time I saw an xsd for jdo was when Robin Roos made one for
>>>>> an earlier draft. He might be able to help get you started with the
>>>>> task.
>>>>> Craig
>>>>> Craig Russell
>>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System
>>> http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
>>>>> 408 276-5638
>>> mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>> Craig Russell
>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System 
>>> http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437

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