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From Daniel John Debrunner <...@debrunners.com>
Subject Re: VOTE: Shared Components Guidelines, Version 27 of the page
Date Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:00:08 GMT
David Van Couvering wrote:

> Hm, I was assuming the Wiki would be around and data isn't lost; any
> revision is available through the Info link on a page, and I think even
> deleted pages remain in the system.  How is the Wiki less "durable" than
> an email archive?  Is it not being backed up?  I would actually think
> it's a better repository because you can actually find stuff much easier
> than having to trawl through email lists, and it can be formatted so
> that it's easier to read and follow.  Also, other Apache sites have
> policies on their web pages, which I'm sure were voted on (see for
> example the link I have to the Jakarta Commons versioning policy).  Do
> our policies have to be in email form only?

I'm not being clear. Let me try to be explicit.

- A proposal can be discussed on the lists and summarized in a wiki, or
even developed on a wiki along with the e-mail discussion.

- I believe the vote e-mail for the policy must include, in-line, the
text of the policy that we are voting on.

- If the policy passes then it can be reflected on a web-site, in a
wiki, in a blog, wherever.

- However, the official record of what was voted on, in case there are
any questions later on, is the e-mail thread in the archives.

> I'd like to challenge that the Wiki site can not be part of the official
> repository for an Apache project.  We have email archives, we have SVN,
>  we have our web site, those are all official.  What is it about the
> Wiki that makes it different?   I agree with you that pointing to a
> mutable page for a vote doesn't work, but if I can point to a specific
> version, I'm not sure what is missing.

What makes it different is that e-mail communication and e-mail archives
are the way that decisions are made and archived on Apache projects.
That's clearly understood and is a common trait for all Apache projects,
and covered in the "how it works" section of apache.org. I'm 100% sure
that the ASF makes sure it's e-mail archives are secure and recoverable.

Wiki's are a new feature,  I have no idea how the ASF infrastructure
views them, it's interesting to note I can't find any mention of them in
any of the apache.org 'how it works' pages.

> The quote "communication is done through mailing lists" -- I think the
> intent is more about the spirit of communication through Internet
> mechanisms than a strict rule about a particular Internet tool, IMHO.  I
> don't know if it's right to be exclusive when other and perhaps better
> communication Internet communication mechanisms can be used to improve
> the quality of communication.  I thought the main point was that
> communications are recorded and public, vs. private and not recorded.
> If we have a voting page, the policy is stored on the Wiki, pointing a
> page with a specific version number, and the vote discussion happens on
> email, what is missing?

I think the intent is mailing-lists, and there is some project that
explicitly states this (can't find it though), and states it in an
apache-wide way, not specific to that project.

I think it's good to ask if the wiki is an approved archive for an
apache project, I'm just not sure it is seen that way by the ASF in general.

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