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From Daniel John Debrunner <...@debrunners.com>
Subject Re: VOTE: Shared Components Guidelines, Version 27 of the page
Date Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:00:08 GMT
David Van Couvering wrote:

> Hm, I was assuming the Wiki would be around and data isn't lost; any
> revision is available through the Info link on a page, and I think even
> deleted pages remain in the system.  How is the Wiki less "durable" than
> an email archive?  Is it not being backed up?  I would actually think
> it's a better repository because you can actually find stuff much easier
> than having to trawl through email lists, and it can be formatted so
> that it's easier to read and follow.  Also, other Apache sites have
> policies on their web pages, which I'm sure were voted on (see for
> example the link I have to the Jakarta Commons versioning policy).  Do
> our policies have to be in email form only?

I'm not being clear. Let me try to be explicit.

- A proposal can be discussed on the lists and summarized in a wiki, or
even developed on a wiki along with the e-mail discussion.

- I believe the vote e-mail for the policy must include, in-line, the
text of the policy that we are voting on.

- If the policy passes then it can be reflected on a web-site, in a
wiki, in a blog, wherever.

- However, the official record of what was voted on, in case there are
any questions later on, is the e-mail thread in the archives.


> I'd like to challenge that the Wiki site can not be part of the official
> repository for an Apache project.  We have email archives, we have SVN,
>  we have our web site, those are all official.  What is it about the
> Wiki that makes it different?   I agree with you that pointing to a
> mutable page for a vote doesn't work, but if I can point to a specific
> version, I'm not sure what is missing.

What makes it different is that e-mail communication and e-mail archives
are the way that decisions are made and archived on Apache projects.
That's clearly understood and is a common trait for all Apache projects,
and covered in the "how it works" section of apache.org. I'm 100% sure
that the ASF makes sure it's e-mail archives are secure and recoverable.

Wiki's are a new feature,  I have no idea how the ASF infrastructure
views them, it's interesting to note I can't find any mention of them in
any of the apache.org 'how it works' pages.


> The quote "communication is done through mailing lists" -- I think the
> intent is more about the spirit of communication through Internet
> mechanisms than a strict rule about a particular Internet tool, IMHO.  I
> don't know if it's right to be exclusive when other and perhaps better
> communication Internet communication mechanisms can be used to improve
> the quality of communication.  I thought the main point was that
> communications are recorded and public, vs. private and not recorded.
> If we have a voting page, the policy is stored on the Wiki, pointing a
> page with a specific version number, and the vote discussion happens on
> email, what is missing?

I think the intent is mailing-lists, and there is some project that
explicitly states this (can't find it though), and states it in an
apache-wide way, not specific to that project.

I think it's good to ask if the wiki is an approved archive for an
apache project, I'm just not sure it is seen that way by the ASF in general.
Dan.



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