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From "Ted Neward" <>
Subject RE: Proposal for Decoupling and Issues with CXFServlet
Date Thu, 04 Jan 2007 19:03:07 GMT
Recognizing that I'm not a "dev", per se, (and thus my input may be rightly
ignored) I still would like to weigh in with a +1: WS-* services are
definitely not tied to any particular channel--such was a major reason for
WS-Addressing's Action, so as to do away with the SOAP Action HTTP header
from SOAP 1.1 when they rewrote the standard for SOAP 1.2. This is also one
of the reasons the SOAP-over-UDP spec was written, to demonstrate bindings
to something other than HTTP.

Tying WS-(anything) to a particular transport is a HUGE mistake, IMHO.

<rant xmlns="">
This is partly why I'd suggested that CXF needs more in the way of
multi-transport samples--these issues become much clearer when you start
thinking about WS-RM over SMTP or (particularly) UDP. If you tie WS-RM in to
HTTP, then not only do you have to rewrite that code if/when somebody (like
me) wants to use another transport (TCP, UDP, FTP, SMTP/POP3, XMPP, JMS all
come to mind as viable options), but you further the misnomer of "Web"
services (meaning XML is only good for shipment over HTTP) as opposed to
"XML" services (meaning transport is largely an implementation detail). HTTP
is a good protocol, but hardly the be-all/end-all transport that solves all

Ted Neward
Java, .NET, XML Services
Consulting, Teaching, Speaking, Writing
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glynn, Eoghan []
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:32 AM
> To:
> Cc: Fang, Yue (Freeman)
> Subject: RE: Proposal for Decoupling and Issues with CXFServlet
> > > Remember that the creation/sending of the partial response and the
> > > rebase on the decoupled response endpoint is already driven from
> > > within the WS-A layer. No matter how we slice the dice the
> > API used to
> > > achieve this, we still need to interact with the transport,
> > either by
> > > necessity (e.g. as only the transport knows that the
> > partial response
> > > should have a "202 Accepted" status in the HTTP case), or for
> > > convenience (e.g. as the transport knows what
> > ConduitInitiator to use
> > > to create the decoupled backchannel conduit, whereas WS-A
> > would need
> > > to do some figuring to relate a HTTP Destination to a HTTP
> > ConduitInitiator).
> >
> >
> > So your concern is putting the HTTP 202 accepted on the
> > partial response?
> > Other than that, the code in JettyHTTPDestination is a pretty
> > simple if
> > statement:
> >
> > if (replyToEPR == null) {
> >   return httpBackChannel;
> > else {
> >   if (partialResponse != null) return httpBackChannel;
> >   else return newConduit(replyToEPR);
> > }
> >
> > Seeing that the HTTP partial response stuff is an RM
> > "feature" anyway which is *specific* to HTTP, whats the harm
> > in putting the message.put(RESPONSE_CODE,
> > HTTP_ACCEPTED) in RM code? We've already coded in a HTTP
> > specific feature into RM (partial responses), so we might as
> > well finish it off and put in the HTTP_ACCEPTED code there too IMO.
> No, No, and thrice No!
> First, WS-RM is *not* specific to HTTP.
> In theory it could run over many other transports, e.g. SMTP, or FTP, or
> some simple TCP-based protocol we cook up ourselves (à la the SonicMQ
> "tcp://localhost:2506" approach).
> At least that was the intention of the spec writers ... to quote from the
> WS-RM spec abstract: "The protocol is described in this specification in a
> **transport-independent** manner allowing it to be implemented using
> different network technologies."
> So our RM implementation should not be explicitly tied to HTTP by setting
> the response code directly to 202. In any transport where the synchronous
> back-channel worked differently, this would obviously be inappropriate.
> Hence my argument that this detail is best kept encapsulated within the
> transport.
> Even if in practice HTTP is likely to be the only the transport that WS-RM
> is deployed over, it would be just silly to burn a restriction to HTTP
> right into the WS-RM code.
> Second, the concept of a partial response is not necessarily specific to
> HTTP ... it could be modeled in any transport with a synchronous back-
> channel.
> Finally, your pseudo-code summary of the
> JettyHTTPDestination.getBackChannel() logic glosses over an important
> point from my previous mail ... creating the decoupled back-channel is not
> done via:
>   return new Conduit(replyToEPR);
> rather its more like:
>   return myHTTPConduitInitiator.getConduit(endpointInfo, replyToEPR);
> It trivial for the JettyHTTPDestination to have a reference to the
> appropriate ConduitInitiator in order to create this Conduit. Not so for
> the WS-A or WS-RM layers.
> /Eoghan
> --
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> 1:34 PM

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