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From "Liu, Jervis" <>
Subject RE: Tooling Proposal [was Re: tooling and service model]
Date Mon, 25 Sep 2006 03:36:53 GMT
Hi Dan, one more question, I am not sure how its going to work if tools depened on core. Based
on our current dependency path, tools <- API <- rt, if  we make tools depending on rt,
isnt it a circular dependency?

-----Original Message-----
From:	Liu, Jervis
Sent:	Sat 9/23/2006 3:57 PM
Subject:	RE: Tooling Proposal [was Re: tooling and service model]

Hi Dan, The plan looks good to me. I had a chat with Jim, we estimate the item 1 to 5 should
be no more than a week's work (or sth around that). In a previous thread, James and Jim already
mentioned that they are interested in working on this, I may also want to pick up some taskes
in the area once I get the JAW-WS handler stories done. Regarding item 6, the replacement
of code model, the work itself should be straightforward, just a lot of changes involved,
so its a bit hard to give an estimate at this moment, but we shall know once we are starting
working on this.

BTW, are we still planing anything for next month's Apache-con? I am not sure how this can
be done without being able to publish CXF snapshot to public repository.


-----Original Message-----
From:	Dan Diephouse []
Sent:	9/23/2006 (???) 1:55 ??
Subject:	Re: Tooling Proposal [was Re: tooling and service model]

I don't know why it would be considered taboo to bring up reasons for 
not refactoring the tools like that. There are perfectly valid reasons 
to want to avoid doing this - like having limited resources or just not 
caring about the feature or having a schedule the project is trying to 
adhere to. I think its best to bring them up and discuss them.

With that said, I do think there are significant benefits from a longer 
term point of view to refactor the tooling like I've proposed - like 
reduction of code[1] and extensibility. I also don't think it would be 
that hard for someone to do. I am even willing to work on it myself...

- Dan

1. While XFire tooling doesn't have quite as many features as the Celtix 
tooling, it does come in at 2K lines of code, compared to 20K with 
Celtix. Thats a significant difference that I dont' think can be 
accounted for by features alone.

Bacon, Stephanos wrote:

>So I'm guessing that by bringing iona's rationale for not refactoring the tools, you probably
broke some kind of apache taboo.
>I get the impression that in Apache the normal kind of "why waste time rewriting something
that works" kind of argument doeant hold water because there is no concept of schedule.  If
the result is cleaner code, then there is a good arument for doing it.
>I suspect you'll get flamed :-)
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Lin, Bozhong
>To: <>
>Sent: Fri Sep 22 02:22:39 2006
>Subject: RE: Tooling Proposal [was Re: tooling and service model]
>I also agree that it makes a lot of sense to leverage current Celtix tooling implementation
and to do any refactoring only for meeting new requirements. These tools are fundamental to
application users and IONA has spent tremendous effort in the past year to maintain and tune
the Celtix tools, making sure that it passes all kinds of complex WSDL and Schema, including
many issues reported by Celtix users. [1].
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dan Diephouse []
>>Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:05 PM
>>Subject: Tooling Proposal [was Re: tooling and service model]
>>>2. If we are to write a new tool from scratch, what are the 
>>feature list we have in mind, and how long do we expect to 
>>reach this feature list. 
>>This is not what I'm proposing at all. I too feel this would be silly.
>>Here is what I'm proposing:
>>   1. Rewrite the generation part of the tooling to use the Service
>>      model instead of the wsdl. This would involve using the
>>      ServiceFactory to build a ServiceModel and then writing 
>>out class
>>      files from there.
>>   2. Have tools depend on the core for the service model and put each
>>      frontend's generation plugins in the frontend themselves. Moving
>>      the service model to a separate module or common 
>>doesn't make any
>>      sense whatsoever because we still need to depend on the
>>      ServiceFactorys which are in the frontend, so there will be a
>>      dependency on core.
>>   3. Add SOAP 1.2 support to the SoapBindingFactory
>>   4. Add WSDL 2 support to the core (WSDL2ServiceBuilder, etc)
>>   5. Do this refactoring in a tools2 module. While I don't anticipate
>>      that this is a lot of work, this will help us get around the
>>      circular dependency issues and allow us to temporarily 
>>break a few
>>      things.
>>   6. Extra credit: use the CodeModel from Sun instead of our own.
>>      Having our own creates unnecessary work and it is also 
>>too tied to
>>      JAX-WS to be useful outside of it. If you look at JAXB, a whole
>>      host of plugins have arose partly because they use this 
>>code model
>>      that anyone can plug into. As its really not a lot of 
>>work to use
>>      it instead of our, I think we should.
>>I think we can do this relatively easily and its not as big a deal as 
>>people are making it out to be. The Celtix tooling is good, 
>>and I don't 
>>want to rewrite it all, I merely want to evolve it.
>>- Dan
>>Dan Diephouse
>>(616) 971-2053
>>Envoi Solutions LLC

Dan Diephouse
(616) 971-2053
Envoi Solutions LLC

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