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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: IRC
Date Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:07:17 GMT

On 14 Aug 06, at 9:33 AM 14 Aug 06, Jim Jagielski wrote:

> A reminder that by its very nature, IRC is exclusionary and
> contrary to ASF principles.

Not communicating with the team as a whole about what has been  
discussed is contrary to ASF principles. We had a general discussion  
about IRC on the incubator list and I think it can be used  
effectively without compromising the integrity of the project. I  
think the policy is that IRC can't be used to make decisions which is  
perfectly reasonable.

> Long-standing ASF projects have
> a hard time using it effectively and without sacrificing
> the communal nature of development crucial to the
> ASF; an Incubator podling will have a MUCH more
> difficult time.

I don't think that's entirely true. Turbine used it a great deal, and  
Maven has always used it and we have people all over the globe and  
we've managed to get the salient points into logs, the wiki and back  
to the mailing lists. And as the Wicket folks pointed out they happen  
to use it quite a bit as well and works effectively for them. We have  
often taken turns shifting schedules so that we can all chat together  
because it can be orders of magnitude more effective then trying to  
communicate by email. At least with Maven we have made a concerted  
effort to catalog everything we discuss in JIRA/Confluence and the  
mailing list. There is nothing that we discuss that doesn't show up  
in a public forum. I would disagree that IRC is inherently  
exclusionary though it can be when used incorrectly. Used correctly I  
think it helps speed development and there's no reason every last  
scrap of information gleaned from an IRC conversation can't be  

> ALL development MUST be done on the Email lists...

If that means that no design or development discussion can be carried  
out on IRC then I think that's just impractical and unreasonable. I  
think the general principle of using some common sense and having a  
strategy to disseminate any ideas discussed in IRC is reasonable. I  
think if you schedule a meeting in IRC and try to make decisions  
within a short period of time where those in other TZs have no chance  
to participate then that is exclusionary.

> On Aug 4, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> Howdy,
>> I've setup #cxf @ if anyone wants to chat about  
>> things. I'll setup a logger on the channel shortly so we can  
>> catalog anything relevant and post it to the list.
>> Jason van Zyl

Jason van Zyl

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