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From "Finan, Sean" <Sean.Fi...@childrens.harvard.edu>
Subject RE: cTakes output predictability
Date Tue, 07 Oct 2014 16:46:31 GMT
Hi Kim,

> It concerns me a bit by making the code return consistent results would be so concerning.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "consistent results"?  Do you mean ordering and
IDs or are you talking about actual type values not matching?

>This should be the default mode of operation.
Depending upon what you meant above, I may agree or disagree.

> Since it doesn't appear that there are any consequences with moving forward with changing
the code
Why do you say this?  

I think that there may be more required changes than you realize.  Every insertion into the
CAS must be of ordered data.  This means that, for instance, named entities discovered by
dictionary will need to be inserted in some predictable order, such as by alphabetized cui
per every alphabetized tui (and other code) per ordered text span.  You will need to check
and recheck every point at which the CAS is modified by every module.  Right now there are
at least three or four places in two cTakes dictionary modules where a change would be required
- and that doesn't include YTEX lookup.

If you really feel strongly about this and are going to change cTakes code, then I suggest
(at the risk of sounding like a complete jerk) that you also consider the following:
1.  Don't check anything into trunk until all is well with your changes and tests
Just in case you abandon the effort
2.  Write unit tests for every change   
True, Map to LinkedMap shouldn't break anything, but they are good to have, and may prevent
others in the future from switching back to a non-linked map or any unordered collection (set
not list, etc.).  It also makes a better place for explanation in Javadoc than inlines above
the code.
3.  Run memory requirement tests before all of your changes and then again after your changes
I'm actually curious about how much memory might be eaten with linkages everywhere
4.  Run performance (speed) tests before and after
On a large corpus to ensure that garbage collection is involved
5.  Do the above with every combination possible in current workflows: every combination of
available sentence detector, pos tagger, smoking status detector, dictionary lookup, cas consumer,
etc.
As soon as somebody says "all output is consistently ordered between runs" it had better be
so for every possible workflow
6.  Write system tests to ensure ordered/predicted outputs with each combination
Otherwise somebody may break it
7.  Document the what, how, and why for future development
Otherwise somebody won't know to stick to the new rules
8.  Assist anybody as needed that in the future breaks one of these unit or system tests with
a fix or new feature
By mandating such a rule you are assuming responsibility for it
9.  Assist anybody as needed that in the future adds a new module or workflow to cTakes to
abide by the ordering requirement
By mandating such a rule you are assuming responsibility for it
10.  Assist anybody as needed that in the future adds a new module or workflow to add system
tests to ensure maintenance of the ordering requirement
By mandating such a rule you are assuming responsibility for it


-----Original Message-----
From: Kim Ebert [mailto:kim.ebert@perfectsearchcorp.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 11:57 AM
To: dev@ctakes.apache.org
Subject: Re: cTakes output predictability

I think we may really prefer the first method. Since it doesn't appear that there are any
consequences with moving forward with changing the code, we would really like to move forward
with this approach.

Kim Ebert
1.801.669.7342
Perfect Search Corp
http://www.perfectsearchcorp.com/

On 10/07/2014 09:35 AM, britt fitch wrote:
> The option Sean mentioned of writing your own custom consumer (without 
> the UIMA id that is causing your issues) should meet these needs I 
> believe.
>
>   	  	  	 
>
> Britt Fitch
> Wired Informatics
> 265 Franklin St Ste 1702
> Boston, MA 02110
> http://wiredinformatics.com
> Britt.Fitch@wiredinformatics.com
>
> On Oct 7, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Kim Ebert 
> <kim.ebert@perfectsearchcorp.com 
> <mailto:kim.ebert@perfectsearchcorp.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sean,
>>
>> Well of course that makes plenty of sense. Testing different cTakes 
>> configurations you would expect different output. In our testing 
>> we've found several cases where running with the same configuration 
>> outputs different data under different moons. Having consistent 
>> results helps us know if we've made improvements to our quality or 
>> not. Having output that is in a predictable order makes checking to 
>> see if there are differences much cheaper when you are dealing with larger data sets.
>>
>> Kim Ebert
>> 1.801.669.7342
>> Perfect Search Corp
>> http://www.perfectsearchcorp.com/
>>
>> On 10/07/2014 08:50 AM, Finan, Sean wrote:
>>> Hi Kim,
>>>
>>> One might want compare the Sentence detector that uses end of line 
>>> characters as sentence splitters with one that does not.  Such a 
>>> change in sentence splitting would not only effect the sentence type 
>>> discoveries but also practically every type that follows.
>>>
>>> Another might want to compare a note with "skin cancer" vs. one in 
>>> which you replace "skin cancer" with "melanoma" just to see what the 
>>> CUI differences might be.  There are changes in two words vs. one,
>>> 11 characters vs. 8, a removed adjective(?), and of course changes 
>>> in CUIs.
>>>
>>> Of course, if you are just running notes on a new moon and then 
>>> again on a full moon ...
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kim Ebert [mailto:kim.ebert@perfectsearchcorp.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 10:41 AM
>>> To: dev@ctakes.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: cTakes output predictability
>>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> "...being different because of a possibly intentional difference."
>>>
>>> I would like you to elaborate a bit on the what would be 
>>> intentionally different between the processing of the same document 
>>> multiple times. It would help my understanding of cTakes.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Kim Ebert
>>> 1.801.669.7342
>>> Perfect Search Corp
>>> http://www.perfectsearchcorp.com/
>>>
>>> On 10/07/2014 07:30 AM, Finan, Sean wrote:
>>>> Steve Bethard wrote:
>>>>> I spent some time writing a script for diff-ing CASes
>>>> I urge anyone interested in comparing cTakes CASes / output to use 
>>>> this type of approach.  Comparison of program output is a 
>>>> post-process task, and unless absolutely necessary code to juggle 
>>>> data and metadata belongs there.  Attempts to force every module 
>>>> past, present and Future to abide by fixed orderings, enumerations 
>>>> etc. is not as simple a task as one might initially think - 
>>>> especially if third-party libraries are involved.  I won't get into 
>>>> problems associated with why one is comparing output (swapped
>>>> module?) and IDs, orders etc. being different because of a possibly 
>>>> intentional difference.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to or instead of creating a post-processing script, one 
>>>> could write a new "cas-consumer" that writes output in a desired 
>>>> format - but this should not require changes to engines.
>>>>
>>>> "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Steven Bethard [mailto:steven.bethard@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 11:23 PM
>>>> To: dev@ctakes.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: cTakes output predictability
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Bruce Tietjen 
>>>> <bruce.tietjen@perfectsearchcorp.com> wrote:
>>>>> Since I started working with cTakes some time ago, I have found it 
>>>>> difficult to compare the output between subsequent runs on the 
>>>>> same files because annotations are often assigned different IDs, 
>>>>> are listed in different order, etc.
>>>> At one point, I spent some time writing a script for diff-ing CASes 
>>>> that intended to address some of these kinds of issues. It's still 
>>>> here in cTAKES:
>>>>
>>>> ctakes-temporal/src/main/java/org/apache/ctakes/temporal/data/analy
>>>> sis
>>>> /CompareFeatureStructures.java
>>>>
>>>> You might see if you could use or adapt that to your needs.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>
>


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