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From Jan Lehnardt <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Whither CouchApps (Was: views failing due to fabric_worker_timeout and OS process timed out)
Date Mon, 27 Feb 2017 10:04:04 GMT
Not sure what you mean with `the hosing feature`, but attachments are not
going away.

FWIW, I’d be in favour of having a modern CouchApp platform hooked into
CouchDB, but in the past 5 years we haven’t found anyone who’d be willing
to put in the work.

Best
Jan
--

> On 27 Feb 2017, at 10:58, Martin Broerse <info@martinbroerse.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jan,
> 
> If we split thinking about CouchApp in the hosting part and the backend
> coding part it would not hurt our usage if we lose the coding part. The
> coding part we need on the backend like password resetmails and other
> scheduled tasks are not there so the coding part needs to be more powerful
> before we can use it. We can solve this tasks with OpenWhisk so perhaps
> keep the hosting feature and lose the rest?
> 
> The Ember guys at LinkedIn found it is faster to eval javascript loaded as
> strings than loading the javascript from the backend. We have not tested
> this yet but if this is true we can perhaps bootstrap javascript apps from
> strings hosted in CouchDB but we still need the CouchDB hosting part for
> the bootstrap code.
> 
> So in the future we are for keeping the hosting and lose the rest.
> 
> - Martin
> 
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Martin,
>> 
>> thanks for your comment.
>> 
>>> On 27 Feb 2017, at 07:52, Martin Broerse <info@martinbroerse.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> We use the hosting from couchapp for many projects via
>>> https://www.npmjs.com/package/ember-cli-deploy-couchdb so keep it in
>>> couchdb. To replace excel sheets in businesses it is super you don't
>> need a
>>> separate hosting stack. An example couchapp hosted only on Cloudant:
>>> https://bloggr.exmer.com
>> 
>> Existing versions of CouchDB that support CouchApps aren’t going away,
>> and I’m sure Cloudant will keep things around for a while, too.
>> 
>> This is about the future of CouchDB and the non-existent developer
>> time that is required to maintain these features as CouchDB evolves.
>> 
>> Best
>> Jan
>> --
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> - Martin
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Aurélien,
>>>> 
>>>> I see that at least at some point you were subscribed and participating
>> on
>>>> the couchapp@couchdb.apache.org mailing list. From the stated goal of
>> the
>>>> list (find a new technical foundation for CouchApp) and the lack of
>>>> significant engagement (users and devs alike) there, it should have been
>>>> clear where this is headed.
>>>> 
>>>> And just to reiterate:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. CouchApp was an attempt to revolutionise web development as we know
>> it.
>>>> — It failed, in like 2011.
>>>> 
>>>> 2. It was designed in a world before Node.js. Most folks who want to do
>>>> JavaScript and CouchDB have moved on.
>>>> 
>>>> 3. There are SEVERE technical limitations, most of which aren’t as bad
>> as
>>>> a view index generator, but VERY bad for anything OLTP (think CGI from
>> 90s).
>>>> 
>>>> 4. The features are unmaintained at this point, future refactorings
>> might
>>>> make the unavailable (e.g. in a http layer rewrite). The last
>> significant
>>>> work on the relevant code is 5-6 years in the past.
>>>> 
>>>> 5.We invited the CouchApp community to step up and build a future-ready
>>>> version of CouchApps, complete with a design direction and own mailing
>>>> list.. Nobody stepped up, and at the end of the day, a project goes
>> where
>>>> developers can spend time.
>>>> 
>>>> 6. and to be clear, we are talking about: 1. _show & _list 2. _update
>>>> funs, 3. rewrites // for the time being, we’ll keep validate_doc_update
>> and
>>>> filter functions, but plan to replace them with per-doc access control
>> and
>>>> Mango schema enforcement. The idea of design docs, or attachments on
>>>> documents are not going away.
>>>> 
>>>> In terms of ease of building web apps: a Node.js process running next to
>>>> CouchDB is only minimally more setup hassle and gives you:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. The same baseline features, plus a lot more.
>>>> 2. A simple app building model.
>>>> 3. A RICH ecosystem of third party libraries.
>>>> 4. WAAAAAAAY better performance and scalability.
>>>> 5. A future for you to do just the things you are already doing without
>>>> moving to another platform.
>>>> 
>>>> Best
>>>> Jan
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 25 Feb 2017, at 18:22, Aurélien Bénel <aurelien.benel@utt.fr>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Joan,
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Your email is aggressive, and your apology is not accepted.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I didn’t want it to be. I beg you for your pardon then.
>>>>> My frustration was real, but I can assure you that I am not an
>>>> aggressive person.
>>>>> There would not have been any ambiguity in my mother language :
>>>>> discussing technologies in a foreign language is one thing, expressing
>>>> your feelings is another.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> This topic has been discussed to death on the mailing lists and I
am
>>>> not going to be pulled into a retread of this argument.
>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/
>>>> 201702.mbox/%3CB6DB98EC-42B1-4960-9E43-257F040238F1%40apache.org%3E
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’m just a « user »… a very dedicated and passionated user (I’m
in the
>>>> top 10% on StackOverflow about CouchDB and I taught CouchDB to more than
>>>> 150 french software engineers), but a user. That’s why I never
>> subscribed
>>>> to the « dev »  mailing list (or for a very short period of time). I now
>>>> understand that I should have, but it’s too late.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My frustration is as high as has been my passion for six years for this
>>>> incredibly interesting project.
>>>>> I respect the board decisions but now I will have a hard time finding
>>>> money (which is sparse in academic research) to move all of our
>> software to
>>>> a different technology stack and arguments to explain to all of my
>>>> collaborators that I bet on a technology stack that got rapidly
>> deprecated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you for your understanding.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Aurélien
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
>>>> https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
>> https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>> 
>> 

-- 
Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
https://neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/


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