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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:15:20 +0100
Message-ID: <y2o771da05a1004200215zb0468621pfd1c7c06b9f958f9@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CouchDB brand identity and design of couchdb.apache.org
From: James Fisher <jameshfisher@gmail.com>
To: user@couchdb.apache.org
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On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:17 PM, J Chris Anderson <jchris@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 11:41 AM, James Fisher wrote:
>
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I've had a long weekend away.  Nice to see this thread's still active.
> >
> > I've procured a copy of Myriad, and swapped Candela out.  My opinions
> > haven't really changed in that regard, but the majority seem to be in
> favour
> > of keeping Myriad.  (Though I almost cried at comparisons of Candela wi=
th
> > Comic Sans.  I could show you what that would look like; you'd be
> > horrified.  It's a shame that that abomination has destroyed any
> > reputability of any other rounded fonts.)
> >
>
> I'm fairly certain that we can't check Myriad into the ASF repo, no matte=
r
> what. (Well, unless we can convince the authors to put it under an open
> license.)
>
>
Hey Chris,

DW, that's not what I was suggesting.  The use of Myriad would be restricte=
d
to rasterized versions of the: (1) logo, (2) "time to relax" slogan, (3)
"Goodbye, ..." intro text (that's now rasterized into the background PNG in
the screenshot).  I was hoping that someone with a good copy of Myriad
could:

* fork my git repo
* open the background SVG in Inkscape
* change the appropriate text to Myriad semibold
* resize the text as appropriate
* convert all Myriad text to paths (so I can work with it)
* update the raster copy of the background (background.png)
* push

That way Myriad would never be uploaded.


> On a separate note I'm not sure how I feel about CSS fonts in general.
> Maybe I'm an old timer, but Helvetica and Georgia are all we really need!
>
>
As should now be clear, I wasn't using Myriad as a @font-face font.  The
screenshot was misleading in that I now obviously have an installed copy of
Myriad on my machine.

WRT Helvetica: I'm not one of those font purists that loves Helvetica over
Arial -- in the interests of consistency, if Arial were a possible
alternative, I'd just use that in CSS.

Also: dunno what you think, but Verdana seems more like cheap Myriad
substitutes than Arial.  Note the much more open counters.  In fact, I've
just been experimenting, and Verdana 12px ~=3D Myriad 14px nicely enough th=
at
I barely notice it.


> Too bad, the Myriad screenshot looks really nice, but I think we shouldn'=
t
> get too hooked on the impossible.
>
> > WRT Chris' fork:
> >
> > * I like the copy; I've pulled it
>
> Thanks! (Although your screenshot still shows the old copy.)
>
> I also changed the quote to one that doesn't mention Django at all:
>
> =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve never seen software that so completely embraces the=
 philosophies
> behind HTTP... this is what the software of the future looks like.=E2=80=
=9D
> =E2=80=94 Jacob Kaplan-Moss, Django creator
>

Screenshot updated.  It's such a flattering quote, I think everyone has
their own favourite parts of it :)


>
> > * The background color I was using was too gloomy, but I'm not sure
> swapping
> > back to plain is the best solution.  I've lightened the cyans I was
> working
> > with.
> > * I understand the desire to keep the old logotype, but the "relax"
> slogan
> > looks even more cramped now that the rest of the site has more space.
> > * The left-hand-side navigation could be OK if the right CSS was applie=
d.
> > The bullet points seriously break up the left align, which I would say =
is
> > bad.  Also, it suffers from the problem that was the reason I moved fro=
m
> > there: the huge amount of space it takes from the body text.  That's
> alright
> > with promo material, but if (e.g.) you wanted to style a wiki using the
> same
> > (or similar) design, it would be terribly cramped.
>
> I have a feeling pages other than the front page would not dedicate the
> upper 500px to a relaxing picture of guy on a Couch under a lamp, so we
> could so something for nav in that space.
>
>
Heh, yeah.  ATM my suggestion for more compact pages would be something
like:

* Remove the intro text
* Remove the quote and the lamp
* Move the sofa guy up to roughly fill that space


> I agree, the bullet list isn't good. That's the point at which I stopped
> working...
>
> >
> > This is how things stand:
> > http://github.com/eegg/couchdb_web/raw/master/screenshot.png
> >
>

Updated screenshot:
http://github.com/eegg/couchdb_web/raw/master/screenshot.png
Rasterized Myriad; Verdana webfont.


>
> With Myriad, I like the nav at the top right a lot more. Maybe it'll look
> ok in Helvetica also?
>
> > Large caveat: the bold text for "CouchDB ... time to relax" should
> actually
> > be in *Semibold*.  Annoyingly, I can't set that with my warez copy of
> > Myriad.  Perhaps someone could edit the SVG and re-rasterize, and I'll
> pull
> > it.
> >
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Robert Dionne <
> dionne@dionne-associates.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> This is looking quite nice. I'm not a grammar expert but I think you c=
an
> >> lose the two commas.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> On Apr 19, 2010, at 11:58 AM, J Chris Anderson <jchris@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Apr 17, 2010, at 9:30 AM, Noah Slater wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> CouchDB is a database built for the Web.
> >>>>
> >>>> Or, like I already mentioned, we could use this quote:
> >>>>
> >>>>     "Let me tell you something: Django may be built for the Web, but
> >> CouchDB is built of the Web."
> >>>>
> >>>>     - http://jacobian.org/writing/of-the-web/
> >>>>
> >>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I've forked James' git project and some work on it. Here is a
> screenshot:
> >>>
> >>> http://jchrisa.net/media/couchdb-web/couchdb-web.png
> >>>
> >>> The fork is at http://github.com/jchris/couchdb_web
> >>>
> >>> The main changes are to the copy, the font (back to myriad) and back
> >> toward something like his first layout (but without the pillows.)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks James for the inspiration. I think this still requires some
> work,
> >> but it was fun to get my hands dirty.
> >>>
> >>> Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 17 Apr 2010, at 17:21, Phil Rand wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "CouchDB is a database at home with the web."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Or "...comfortable with the web."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regarding fonts, I feel like a beer drinker at a wine tasting.  The=
y
> >> both
> >>>>> look fine to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2010/4/13 Robert Newson <robert.newson@gmail.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Very nice design. s/geared for the web/designed for the web/ ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Pawe=C5=82 Stawicki <
> >> pawelstawicki@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> I like the new design. Font is not so important for me, can be ol=
d
> >> one,
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>>> be new one.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Pawe=C5=82 Stawicki
> >>>>>>> http://pawelstawicki.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>> http://szczecin.jug.pl
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 22:35, J Chris Anderson <jchris@apache.or=
g
> >
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2010, at 1:22 PM, James Fisher wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:40 PM, J Chris Anderson <
> >> jchris@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 2010, at 12:21 PM, James Fisher wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Apalling internet connection atm.  Try:
> >>>>>>>>>> http://i41.tinypic.com/156aeds.jpg
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I really like the simplicity.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I think you will have a hard time convincing people to change
> the
> >>>>>> word
> >>>>>>>> mark
> >>>>>>>>>> associated with the current CouchDB / Relax logo. If you can g=
o
> >> back
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> old (less relaxing) font and type-setting for that,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Mmm, I do wonder how ingrained it is.  I suppose the pros and
> cons
> >>>>>> are:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Myriad (if that is what it is) pros:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Expensive.  Possibly gives a subconscious feel of luxury.
> >>>>>>>>> * Already used.  If (if) CouchDB already has a well-ingrained
> brand
> >>>>>>>>> identity, it's wise to keep it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think the "Already used" point is the most salient. There are
> >> already
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> ton of t-shirts, releases, etc all using the current logo.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I think if we were gonna move from the current logo / word mark,
> >> we'd
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>> move to something even more expensive. But that's my opinion...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> CouchDB is relaxing, but overplaying that too much can scare awa=
y
> >> people
> >>>>>>>> who want to use it for serious things.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Presumably has a much better character set if it's ever going
> to
> >> be
> >>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>> extensively (I doubt it).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> cons:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Expensive.  Even my own warez collection of fonts hasn't
> managed
> >> to
> >>>>>>>> hoover
> >>>>>>>>> it up.  I doubt many people except professional graphic artists
> own
> >> a
> >>>>>>>>> genuine copy.
> >>>>>>>>> * Extensively used by Apple (http://www.apple.com/ I don't thin=
k
> >>>>>> there's
> >>>>>>>>> much they produce that *isn't* in Myriad).  I suppose you could
> >> call
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> pro if you want to piggyback; but I don't think the CouchDB
> >> identity
> >>>>>> fits
> >>>>>>>>> very well with brushed aluminium.  I don't want to kick back on
> an
> >>>>>>>> aluminium
> >>>>>>>>> couch.
> >>>>>>>>> * (my own feeling is that it is) a bit too formal.  It has a
> >> "friendly
> >>>>>>>>> high-class business" feel (can't find the words there).  E.g.
> >>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myriad_%28typeface%29 mentions it'=
s
> >> used
> >>>>>> by
> >>>>>>>> All
> >>>>>>>>> Nippon business class flights.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Candela pros:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * I think it looks like a couch, in a hard-to-define way.
> >>>>>>>>> * Free (and libre) (at least for the purposes of @font-face and
> any
> >>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>> CouchDB literature, AFAICT from the license).
> >>>>>>>>> * Untrammelled by other prominent commercial use -- making it
> >>>>>> potentially
> >>>>>>>>> highly distinctive as "that CouchDB font".
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> cons:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * CouchDB community rebellion against it? (?!)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ---
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and perhaps drop the saturation on the Cyan (light-blue-grey
> would
> >> be
> >>>>>>>> nice
> >>>>>>>>>> I think) you'd be getting somewhere.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I agree with you there, I think.  Alternatively, turn up the
> >>>>>> brightness.
> >>>>>>>>> Doing a bit of both helps.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Julian Moritz <
> >>>>>>>> mailings@julianmoritz.de
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> James Fisher schrieb:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've no idea if I can attach PNGs here, but here goes.  Fin=
d
> >>>>>> attached
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one proposed design.  Only Inkscape atm, but I should be ab=
le
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>> convert
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to HTML with little fuss.  A few notes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me know if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> no png attached. Seems you've been interupted while writing
> this
> >>>>>>>> email?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Julian
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@me.co=
m
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nslater@me.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Apr 2010, at 13:54, James Fisher wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly will do.  I'm doing some rough sketches now; mig=
ht
> >> get
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> something
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up in the next couple of days.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Please take a look at these designs:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Homepage:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitpic.com/pme28/full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Homepage/Downloads:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitpic.com/pmetj/full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Homepage/Screenshots:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitpic.com/pmevr/full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitpic.com/pmexo/full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wiki/Syntax reference:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitpic.com/pmf2r/full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think we all agreed at the time that this was a good way
> >>>>>> forward
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the site.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Search the dev mailing list for "Website redesign" and mayb=
e
> >> get
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> touch with:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      maddiin <maddiin@googlemail.com <mailto:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> maddiin@googlemail.com>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> He was doing most of the work on this last time!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> N
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Phil Rand
> >>>>> philrand@gmail.com
> >>>>> philrand@pobox.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
>

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