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Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 17:00:50 +0300
Message-ID: 
 <CAHdjipKonOdo9yZQSkXkiUUp73rW_FahidO=QmkdvNg-mCKLSw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
From: Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com>
To: "marketing@couchdb.apache.org" <marketing@couchdb.apache.org>
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--
,,,^..^,,,


On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com> wro=
te:
> Thanks Alexander for you thougths. They have been very useful for us to
> have a feeling of the current developer team status and preferences. We
> were simply not aware of such this situation.
>
> Unfortunately currently we don't have resources and erlang competences to
> join couchdb team. We have full respect for Cloudant and developers worki=
ng
> in Cloudant and I understand everyone wants to work on what he cares most=
,
> even regardless of marketing considerations to increase interest in the
> project and ultimately the committers adoption rate.
>
> My starting intention with the thread 'couchdb articles, pills, tutorials=
'
> wasn't absolutely to bore anyone with such this kind of discussion. I'm
> very sorry for that, but in the end, I think it has been also useful to
> define both couchdb and smileupps' plans for the future.
>
> I'm very happy jan likes tim black's proposal to market both "couchdb" an=
d
> "couchapps" separately and clearly, to allow them both to grow. We found =
it
> very very good to prevent confusion and from a marketing perspective too.
>
> Having said this, even if currently we can't do more than what we are
> already doing to grab users' interest, I'm still looking forward to work
> together with you in the future, in a way or another.
>
> Thanks all for your patience and this useful discussion,
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Smileupps Team
>
>
> Il giorno 11/mag/2015 18:47, "Jan Lehnardt" <jan@apache.org> ha scritto:
>
>>
>> > On 11 May 2015, at 15:01, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Sorry, for intruding into your conversation, but let me throw you a
>> > thought I have.
>> >
>> > Apache CouchDB, as it was said, is a volunteer project, where each
>> > committer takes care about what they personally likes or need for own
>> > business: Cloudnant contributors cares about cluster feature and
>> > stable core, Jan cares about simplicity of usage CouchDB with no
>> > confusing things, Robert Kowalski like to work mostly on frontend part
>> > of the project - sorry if I didn't explain precisely position and
>> > motivation of the each, but it doesn't matter. What I want to say, is
>> > everybody works on what they likes/need/feels important.
>> >
>> > Obliviously, couchapp feature lacks of love, care and attention for
>> > quite long of time and there is no explicit leader to work on this
>> > feature and evangelist to promote. If couchapps feature is critical
>> > for Smileyupps business and they have ideas how to improve it and
>> > resources to maintain it, why not to take Cloudant as an example and
>> > become a contributor? I think, with such plan, everybody will win:
>> > CouchDB will get more powerful couchapps, Smileyupps will be able to
>> > be more attractive for their client=C3=A8le. And by the way, you event=
ually
>> > may help to solve confusion around couchapps.
>> >
>> > Sounds like business-driven development, but I'd like to think about
>> > it as about inventions into open source for better business. After
>> > all, business successful features mostly may receive warm welcome by a
>> > community, while business specific will get cut off in order to have
>> > more general solution that fits most in the end.
>> >
>> > Otherwise I see whole this discussion as arguing of two people where
>> > first continues keeps saying "we need couchapps! couchapps are cool!"
>> > and the second one responses "couchapps are full of flaws and
>> > confusion!". Without the one who will enter and say "Hey! Calm down,
>> > I'll sort all the problems" there wouldn't be any good solution and
>> > couchapps will die as technology by timeout: era of HTTP/2 is coming
>> > which going to change a lot of things, while I don't mention existed
>> > websockets.
>> >
>> > So what do you think about?
>>
>> I think I agree 100% with what you are saying, thanks Alexander :)
>>
>> Best
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > ,,,^..^,,,
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.co=
m>
>> wrote:
>> >> Hi Joan, thanks for your useful reminders. I think you hit the main
>> point.
>> >>
>> >> 2015-05-09 20:26 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>> >>
>> >>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
>> >>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
>> >>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
>> >>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
>> >>> market for Apache CouchDB.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IB=
M
>> >>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
>> >>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
>> >>> using the shared cluster service ....
>> >>>
>> >> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
>> >>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
>> >>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
>> >>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation=
,
>> >>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
>> >>> of security rules *was*.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> From what you cc'ed and then say, it seems that CouchDB market should=
 be
>> >> strictly the same as Cloudant market.. Is it this what Mike and you
>> would
>> >> like to say? And if yes, why?
>> >>
>> >> Why an Apache project, should strictly target companies with thousand=
 to
>> >> millions dollars?
>> >> Is this allowed by "the apache way"?
>> >> Are there other Apache examples of company-driven project?
>> >>
>> >> Sorry for all these questions but I am very very ignorant in this. I
>> >> thought a project should only be driven from its users as its most
>> >> important participants.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks in advance for your useful answers.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
>> >>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
>> >>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
>> >>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
>> >>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
>> >>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
>> >>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
>> >>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
>> >>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
>> >>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
>> >>> More information on this use is at:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C286=
03443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
>> >>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Let's be clear.
>> >>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
>> >>>> have
>> >>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> which we offer a solution.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share som=
e
>> >>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate =
to
>> >>>> their commercial extensions and services)?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Miles Fidelman
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
>> >>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
>> >>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
>> >>>>> public ?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
>> >>>>>> total
>> >>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
>> >>>>>> is driven.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and tak=
e
>> >>>>>> it to
>> >>>>>> the devs@ list
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
>> >>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertai=
n
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
>> >>>>>> marketing more
>> >>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them t=
o
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion
>> >>>>>> to user@
>> >>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> PMC hat on...
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
>> >>>>>>> list to
>> >>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We ar=
e
>> >>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, an=
d
>> >>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea to
>> >>>>>>> have a
>> >>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially
>> >>>>>>> keen to
>> >>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
>> >>>>>>> effort.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
>> >>>>>>> proposals
>> >>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* an=
d
>> >>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
>> >>>>>>> development
>> >>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
>> >>>>>>> helping you
>> >>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
>> >>>>>>> difficulties
>> >>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Best regards,
>> >>>>>>> Joan
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
>> >>>>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of
>> >>>>>>>>> Couch
>> >>>>>>>>> apps.
>> >>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to
>> >>>>>>>>> add
>> >>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to
>> >>>>>>>> Fauxton)
>> >>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and build
>> >>>>>>>> tools
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi
>> >>>>>> www.smileupps.com
>> >>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> >>>> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Giovanni Lenzi
>> >> www.smileupps.com
>> >> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>>
>> --
>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>>
>>