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From Giovanni Lenzi <g.le...@smileupps.com>
Subject Re: How do CouchApps fit into the CouchDB story? (Was: CouchDB Articles, Pills and Tutorials Ideas)
Date Tue, 05 May 2015 10:54:03 GMT
I think it's a timing problem.. probably Couchapps were simply not mature
enough some years ago.. but nowadays their potential has increased a lot,
under every aspect.

IMHO they are even one of the best way to implement granular server-side
security.

- security: server-side read and write ACLS are a reality(
https://www.smileupps.com/couchapp-tutorial-chatty)
   - filtered changes from RCouch will improve security even further
   - probably, some minor tweaks to the rewriting engine module can easily
add ACL at view level, so improving performance on #3
   - ACL for _attachments is already possible. We have a tutorial scheduled
on that

- background events are a reality too and they enable Couchapps to perform
any kind of background REST events:
   - send email, SMS, payments, scheduled backups.. and so on.. just by
interacting with the database
   - all these jobs can eventually be packed into single-feature-ready
couchapps: e.g. "do you need stripe payments on your website?".. just
download the stripe couchapp!
   - the daemon is opensource and implemented in node.js,
https://www.smileupps.com/couch-daemon-triggerjob ... but it would be great
ported to erlang

I agree with ermouth a lot can still be done around tooling, performance
and scalability (do you think bigcouch can eventually help us on this
too?), but I think leaving Couchapps could be really a great error.


2015-05-05 11:49 GMT+02:00 Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>:

>
> > On 05 May 2015, at 11:08, Andy Wenk <andywenk@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Jan thanks for raising this important topic!
> >
> > As I had been around and participated when JChris, Jan and others started
> > CouchApps and Benoit took over the work, I am a bit sad, that CouchApps
> > started to confuse people. And yes it is true, they are limited but have
> > their place in the history of CouchDB. Far more, it can easily be seen as
> > the evolutionary basis for Hoodie and that is a good thing imho.
> >
> > We should give CouchApps a place to live in the CouchDB ecosystem (not
> > meant technically). So my proposal is to reactivate couchapp.org and
> write
> > one page with info about
> >
> > * what CouchApps are
> > * how one can create one (links to doku)
> > * what alternatives there are (kanso, hoodie ...)
> >
> > Furthermore we should include a link on couchdb.org to couchapp.org.
> >
> > I think it would be wrong to leave people still in the dark even though
> > nowadays we think, CouchApps is not the way one should create a WebApp
> > based on CouchDB (and I don't think the approaches to create CouchApps
> was
> > foolish Jan ;-)). It is our responsibility to clarify what CouchApps are
> > and why one should move forward to sth. better. With clarification comes
> > clarity
>
> Thanks Andy! — I’m all for the things you mention, once we figure out how
> the CouchApps story fits into the larger CouchDB story without confusing
> anyone.
>
> What’s your take on that? :)
>
> * * *
>
> Also, I think we shouldn’t be afraid to make CouchApp’s place in CouchDB’s
> history clear in terms of “This was an idea of its time. Today, we think
> differently. RIP CouchApps”.
>
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > On 5 May 2015 at 10:54, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> It seems we have a separate discussion going on here, so I forked the
> >> thread.
> >>
> >> I’ve seen these two sides ever since we invented CouchApps:
> >>
> >> Pro:
> >> - CouchApps are amazingly simple
> >> - CouchDB as an app server is a great idea, I don’t need to run any
> other
> >> infrastructure
> >> - this is the future of web development
> >> - couchapp* is a great tool to manage design docs
> >>
> >> (*or erica… etc.)
> >>
> >> Con:
> >> - the concept of compiling design docs is confusing
> >>   - even when they get it, they are confused that they need a third
> party
> >> tool called `couchapp` to do so, because the documentation talks about
> >> building full apps in CouchDB, they have an external app and just want
> to
> >> use CouchDB as a database, but couchapp is still the tool they need.
> >> - the tooling is poor
> >> - the tooling is all third-party
> >> - they can only cover a very limited use-case
> >> - CouchApps are the only way to use CouchDB
> >>
> >>
> >> I see a number of people being passionate about CouchApps and I believe
> >> their enthusiasm is warranted, CouchApps are a neat idea.
> >>
> >> But I also see a greater number of people being confused by CouchApps
> and
> >> in turn by CouchDB.
> >>
> >> That is not a good situation.
> >>
> >> Let’s think about how (and if) we can fit the CouchApp story into a
> >> coherent CouchDB story.
> >>
> >> A prerequisite for that is having a coherent CouchDB story, which we
> don’t
> >> have fully finalised yet, but we have talked about extensively, and the
> >> consensus is around the “Data where you need it” narrative that
> emphasises
> >> replication between CouchDB instances and other projects that speak the
> >> replication protocol (especially PouchDB and TouchDB).
> >>
> >> How do CouchApps fit into that narrative?
> >>
> >>
> >> * * *
> >>
> >> (Personal view alert: this is just to give some more background on my
> own
> >> position, this isn’t meant as a basis for discussion)
> >>
> >> I’m personally conflicted. When we set out to develop CouchApps, we
> >> thought we are inventing a new paradigm for how to build the web, and
> >> everybody would follow us, because that would enable a true p2p web.
> That
> >> didn’t happen and probably was a little foolish of us :D
> >>
> >> Technically, that would have meant CouchApps had to grow a lot more and
> I
> >> realised quickly that CouchDB is not the right place to grow such a
> thing.
> >> In addition, there are various fully fledged web frameworks already and
> >> CouchApps could never really compete in terms of person-power and
> attention.
> >>
> >> That all led me to re-evaluate the whole value proposition, when things
> >> like PouchDB came up and the browser became a decent application
> >> development platform. That whole thinking led to the creation of Hoodie
> (
> >> http://hood.ie), which started out with the code name CANG (Couch Apps
> >> Next Generation), where we liked some of the core ideas of CouchApps,
> but
> >> wanted to address the limitations that would stifle their adoption.
> Hoodie
> >> embraces browser-to-server sync to allow fully offline apps, it allows
> >> all-javascript-all-json development on the front- and back-end. It uses
> the
> >> database-per-user and the _changes-feed-as-async-worker paradigms and
> it is
> >> all wrapped into a package that is *really* easy to understand and get
> >> started with. Hoodie, unlike CouchApps, does have a fighting chance of
> >> making CouchDB’s unique features (replication, _changes) available for a
> >> larger population and I’m infinitely excited about that.
> >>
> >> * * *
> >>
> >> All that doesn’t mean, however, that CouchApps don’t have their place,
> but
> >> again, I’m not sure where that place is and the place it currently has
> >> seems to negatively affect CouchDB, so I’d like for this list to think
> and
> >> talk about all that for a bit.
> >>
> >> How can we make it that CouchApps strengthen CouchDB and not weaken it
> by
> >> adding confusion?
> >>
> >> How do CouchApps fit into the CouchDB story?
> >>
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Jan
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 05 May 2015, at 08:45, ermouth <ermouth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> CouchDB-killing answers
> >>>
> >>> Well... When someone says couchapps is silver bullet – I say ‘No’
and I
> >> can
> >>> prove it. Couchapps have a lot, A LOT of problems, and some of them can
> >> not
> >>> be solved inside CouchDB. For example, try to implement ACL for
> >> attachments
> >>> or try to scale couchapp. You just can‘t do it in reasonable way.
> >>>
> >>> I know several engineers who tried out couchapps – and left CouchDB
> >>> forever. Not because CouchDB itself, but because couchapps. O‘Reilly
> said
> >>> it‘s a silver bullet, others said – and what we have? Sloppy and
> >>> hard-to-debug architecture, that does not scale, has no tooling and a
> lot
> >>> of security issues.
> >>>
> >>> You gonna solve architecture problems with positive posts?
> >>>
> >>> What I want to say – there is no need to lie and say couchapps are
> great.
> >>> Because they are not.
> >>>
> >>>> would you like to write down some of your positive:-)) experiences?
> >>>
> >>> http://ermouth.livejournal.com/tag/couchdb – sorry, Russian language.
> >>>
> >>> ermouth
> >>
> >> --
> >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andy Wenk
> > Hamburg - Germany
> > RockIt!
> >
> > GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
> >
> > https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>

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