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From Alexander Shorin <kxe...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Tue, 12 May 2015 14:20:13 GMT
Ouch, sorry, wrong buttons.

Giovanni, no need to be sorry. I think that was great that we clean
the dust from the old problems and took a look on them with the fresh
sight. It's good that this discussion happened.

There is no need to be professional Erlang programmer to handle this
feature: just be the one with burning heart and good will - experience
it a matter of time and we can help to get it as much as we can. Hope
one day your team will join us to make CouchDB better.

But informational support, as what it was in your original post, is
also very important as much as the code, may be even more, and we
always appreciate such kind of work. Hope you didn't loose interest to
push it forward after all what was said on this list (:

--
,,,^..^,,,


On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com> wrote:
>> Thanks Alexander for you thougths. They have been very useful for us to
>> have a feeling of the current developer team status and preferences. We
>> were simply not aware of such this situation.
>>
>> Unfortunately currently we don't have resources and erlang competences to
>> join couchdb team. We have full respect for Cloudant and developers working
>> in Cloudant and I understand everyone wants to work on what he cares most,
>> even regardless of marketing considerations to increase interest in the
>> project and ultimately the committers adoption rate.
>>
>> My starting intention with the thread 'couchdb articles, pills, tutorials'
>> wasn't absolutely to bore anyone with such this kind of discussion. I'm
>> very sorry for that, but in the end, I think it has been also useful to
>> define both couchdb and smileupps' plans for the future.
>>
>> I'm very happy jan likes tim black's proposal to market both "couchdb" and
>> "couchapps" separately and clearly, to allow them both to grow. We found it
>> very very good to prevent confusion and from a marketing perspective too.
>>
>> Having said this, even if currently we can't do more than what we are
>> already doing to grab users' interest, I'm still looking forward to work
>> together with you in the future, in a way or another.
>>
>> Thanks all for your patience and this useful discussion,
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Smileupps Team
>>
>>
>> Il giorno 11/mag/2015 18:47, "Jan Lehnardt" <jan@apache.org> ha scritto:
>>
>>>
>>> > On 11 May 2015, at 15:01, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Sorry, for intruding into your conversation, but let me throw you a
>>> > thought I have.
>>> >
>>> > Apache CouchDB, as it was said, is a volunteer project, where each
>>> > committer takes care about what they personally likes or need for own
>>> > business: Cloudnant contributors cares about cluster feature and
>>> > stable core, Jan cares about simplicity of usage CouchDB with no
>>> > confusing things, Robert Kowalski like to work mostly on frontend part
>>> > of the project - sorry if I didn't explain precisely position and
>>> > motivation of the each, but it doesn't matter. What I want to say, is
>>> > everybody works on what they likes/need/feels important.
>>> >
>>> > Obliviously, couchapp feature lacks of love, care and attention for
>>> > quite long of time and there is no explicit leader to work on this
>>> > feature and evangelist to promote. If couchapps feature is critical
>>> > for Smileyupps business and they have ideas how to improve it and
>>> > resources to maintain it, why not to take Cloudant as an example and
>>> > become a contributor? I think, with such plan, everybody will win:
>>> > CouchDB will get more powerful couchapps, Smileyupps will be able to
>>> > be more attractive for their clientèle. And by the way, you eventually
>>> > may help to solve confusion around couchapps.
>>> >
>>> > Sounds like business-driven development, but I'd like to think about
>>> > it as about inventions into open source for better business. After
>>> > all, business successful features mostly may receive warm welcome by a
>>> > community, while business specific will get cut off in order to have
>>> > more general solution that fits most in the end.
>>> >
>>> > Otherwise I see whole this discussion as arguing of two people where
>>> > first continues keeps saying "we need couchapps! couchapps are cool!"
>>> > and the second one responses "couchapps are full of flaws and
>>> > confusion!". Without the one who will enter and say "Hey! Calm down,
>>> > I'll sort all the problems" there wouldn't be any good solution and
>>> > couchapps will die as technology by timeout: era of HTTP/2 is coming
>>> > which going to change a lot of things, while I don't mention existed
>>> > websockets.
>>> >
>>> > So what do you think about?
>>>
>>> I think I agree 100% with what you are saying, thanks Alexander :)
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Jan
>>> --
>>>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > ,,,^..^,,,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Hi Joan, thanks for your useful reminders. I think you hit the main
>>> point.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2015-05-09 20:26 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>>> >>
>>> >>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
>>> >>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
>>> >>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
>>> >>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
>>> >>> market for Apache CouchDB.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
>>> >>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client
that
>>> >>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
>>> >>> using the shared cluster service ....
>>> >>>
>>> >> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
>>> >>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there
was
>>> >>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
>>> >>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
>>> >>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
>>> >>> of security rules *was*.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> From what you cc'ed and then say, it seems that CouchDB market should
be
>>> >> strictly the same as Cloudant market.. Is it this what Mike and you
>>> would
>>> >> like to say? And if yes, why?
>>> >>
>>> >> Why an Apache project, should strictly target companies with thousand
to
>>> >> millions dollars?
>>> >> Is this allowed by "the apache way"?
>>> >> Are there other Apache examples of company-driven project?
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry for all these questions but I am very very ignorant in this. I
>>> >> thought a project should only be driven from its users as its most
>>> >> important participants.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks in advance for your useful answers.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent
of
>>> >>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
>>> >>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
>>> >>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
>>> >>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
>>> >>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
>>> >>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
>>> >>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
>>> >>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
>>> >>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
>>> >>> More information on this use is at:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
>>> >>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Let's be clear.
>>> >>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who
don't
>>> >>>> have
>>> >>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
>>> >>>> for
>>> >>>> which we offer a solution.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
>>> >>>> and
>>> >>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share
some
>>> >>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might
relate to
>>> >>>> their commercial extensions and services)?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Miles Fidelman
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
>>> >>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to
the public"?
>>> >>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to
the
>>> >>>>> public ?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered
I am a
>>> >>>>>> total
>>> >>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making
process
>>> >>>>>> is driven.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion
then and take
>>> >>>>>> it to
>>> >>>>>> the devs@ list
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the
story for
>>> >>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow
uncertain
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't
maybe
>>> >>>>>> marketing more
>>> >>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to
drive them to
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this
discussion
>>> >>>>>> to user@
>>> >>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Hi all,
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> PMC hat on...
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using
the MARKETING
>>> >>>>>>> list to
>>> >>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache
CouchDB. We are
>>> >>>>>>> not
>>> >>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they
want to do, and
>>> >>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's
a good idea to
>>> >>>>>>> have a
>>> >>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development,
I am especially
>>> >>>>>>> keen to
>>> >>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven
development
>>> >>>>>>> effort.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please
make those
>>> >>>>>>> proposals
>>> >>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing
to *develop* and
>>> >>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current
CouchDB
>>> >>>>>>> development
>>> >>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be
served by
>>> >>>>>>> helping you
>>> >>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints,
and the
>>> >>>>>>> difficulties
>>> >>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Best regards,
>>> >>>>>>> Joan
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
>>> >>>>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of
the new features of
>>> >>>>>>>>> Couch
>>> >>>>>>>>> apps.
>>> >>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited
set of features to
>>> >>>>>>>>> add
>>> >>>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool
(add features to
>>> >>>>>>>> Fauxton)
>>> >>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to
learn git and build
>>> >>>>>>>> tools
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi
>>> >>>>>> www.smileupps.com
>>> >>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>> >>>> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Giovanni Lenzi
>>> >> www.smileupps.com
>>> >> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>>>
>>> --
>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>>>
>>>

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