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From Alexander Shorin <kxe...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Mon, 11 May 2015 13:01:52 GMT
Sorry, for intruding into your conversation, but let me throw you a
thought I have.

Apache CouchDB, as it was said, is a volunteer project, where each
committer takes care about what they personally likes or need for own
business: Cloudnant contributors cares about cluster feature and
stable core, Jan cares about simplicity of usage CouchDB with no
confusing things, Robert Kowalski like to work mostly on frontend part
of the project - sorry if I didn't explain precisely position and
motivation of the each, but it doesn't matter. What I want to say, is
everybody works on what they likes/need/feels important.

Obliviously, couchapp feature lacks of love, care and attention for
quite long of time and there is no explicit leader to work on this
feature and evangelist to promote. If couchapps feature is critical
for Smileyupps business and they have ideas how to improve it and
resources to maintain it, why not to take Cloudant as an example and
become a contributor? I think, with such plan, everybody will win:
CouchDB will get more powerful couchapps, Smileyupps will be able to
be more attractive for their clientèle. And by the way, you eventually
may help to solve confusion around couchapps.

Sounds like business-driven development, but I'd like to think about
it as about inventions into open source for better business. After
all, business successful features mostly may receive warm welcome by a
community, while business specific will get cut off in order to have
more general solution that fits most in the end.

Otherwise I see whole this discussion as arguing of two people where
first continues keeps saying "we need couchapps! couchapps are cool!"
and the second one responses "couchapps are full of flaws and
confusion!". Without the one who will enter and say "Hey! Calm down,
I'll sort all the problems" there wouldn't be any good solution and
couchapps will die as technology by timeout: era of HTTP/2 is coming
which going to change a lot of things, while I don't mention existed
websockets.

So what do you think about?

--
,,,^..^,,,


On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com> wrote:
> Hi Joan, thanks for your useful reminders. I think you hit the main point.
>
> 2015-05-09 20:26 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>
>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
>> market for Apache CouchDB.
>>
>
>
>
>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
>> using the shared cluster service ....
>>
> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
>> of security rules *was*.
>>
>
> From what you cc'ed and then say, it seems that CouchDB market should be
> strictly the same as Cloudant market.. Is it this what Mike and you would
> like to say? And if yes, why?
>
> Why an Apache project, should strictly target companies with thousand to
> millions dollars?
> Is this allowed by "the apache way"?
> Are there other Apache examples of company-driven project?
>
> Sorry for all these questions but I am very very ignorant in this. I
> thought a project should only be driven from its users as its most
> important participants.
>
> Thanks in advance for your useful answers.
>
>
>
>>
>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
>> More information on this use is at:
>>
>>
>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
>> > To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
>> > Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>> >
>> > Let's be clear.
>> > (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
>> > have
>> > a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
>> > for
>> > which we offer a solution.
>> >
>> > And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
>> > and
>> > "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share some
>> > findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate to
>> > their commercial extensions and services)?
>> >
>> > Miles Fidelman
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
>> > >> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
>> > > or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
>> > > public ?
>> > >
>> > > 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
>> > >
>> > >> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
>> > >> total
>> > >> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
>> > >> is driven.
>> > >>
>> > >> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and take
>> > >> it to
>> > >> the devs@ list
>> > >>
>> > >> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
>> > >> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertain
>> > >>
>> > >> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
>> > >> marketing more
>> > >> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to
>> > >> the
>> > >> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion
>> > >> to user@
>> > >> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Hi all,
>> > >>>
>> > >>> PMC hat on...
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
>> > >>> list to
>> > >>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We are
>> > >>> not
>> > >>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, and
>> > >>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea to
>> > >>> have a
>> > >>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially
>> > >>> keen to
>> > >>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
>> > >>> effort.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
>> > >>> proposals
>> > >>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* and
>> > >>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
>> > >>> development
>> > >>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
>> > >>> helping you
>> > >>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
>> > >>> difficulties
>> > >>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Best regards,
>> > >>> Joan
>> > >>>
>> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
>> > >>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>> > >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
>> > >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features
of
>> > >>>>> Couch
>> > >>>>> apps.
>> > >>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features
to
>> > >>>>> add
>> > >>>>> to
>> > >>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features
to
>> > >>>> Fauxton)
>> > >>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and build
>> > >>>> tools
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Giovanni Lenzi
>> > >> www.smileupps.com
>> > >> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> > In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Lenzi
> www.smileupps.com
> Smileupps Cloud App Store

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