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From Miles Fidelman <>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Mon, 11 May 2015 15:09:51 GMT

Thanks for the datapoints!

I am a little surprised, though - I'd think that simple, 
data-driven-documents (particularly visualizations), implemented as 
CouchApps, would be just the thing for anyone who is using Cloudant for 
storing and mining large databases.

Just a thought.



Joan Touzet wrote:
> Hi Miles,
> DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or
> Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if
> necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here).
> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
> market for Apache CouchDB.
> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
> using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional
> three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java,
> .NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms
> (iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to
> the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios,
> replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST
> interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as
> a third.
> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
> of security rules *was*.
> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
> More information on this use is at:
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>> Let's be clear.
>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
>> have
>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
>> for
>> which we offer a solution.
>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
>> and
>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share some
>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate to
>> their commercial extensions and services)?
>> Miles Fidelman
>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
>>> public ?
>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <>:
>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
>>>> total
>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
>>>> is driven.
>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and take
>>>> it to
>>>> the devs@ list
>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertain
>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
>>>> marketing more
>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to
>>>> the
>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion
>>>> to user@
>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <>:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> PMC hat on...
>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
>>>>> list to
>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We are
>>>>> not
>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, and
>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea to
>>>>> have a
>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially
>>>>> keen to
>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
>>>>> effort.
>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
>>>>> proposals
>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* and
>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
>>>>> development
>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
>>>>> helping you
>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
>>>>> difficulties
>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Joan
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <>
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of
>>>>>>> Couch
>>>>>>> apps.
>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to
>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to
>>>>>> Fauxton)
>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and build
>>>>>> tools
>>>> --
>>>> Giovanni Lenzi
>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>> --
>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra

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