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From Miles Fidelman <mfidel...@meetinghouse.net>
Subject Re: How do CouchApps fit into the CouchDB story? (Was: CouchDB Articles, Pills and Tutorials Ideas)
Date Wed, 06 May 2015 19:38:22 GMT
Jan Lehnardt wrote:
>
>> Re. a couple of things below:
>>>> This should be definitely something @users should be involved in.. at least
>>>> those interested in Couchapps.
>>>>
>>>> To recap:
>>>> Jan: wants to remove Couchapp name and design doc functions because it
>>>> finds them to be source of confusion
>>> This does not adequately reflects my position. I don’t suggest to remove
>>> any of the things that make CouchApps possible.
>>>
>>> My larger argument can be foundhttp://markmail.org/message/no3jfksdxjcgxz4d andhttp://markmail.org/message/xla3hulea4lo5duw
>>>
>>> tl;dr: I’d like us to think about how the CouchApp (or whatever the
>>> final name might be) story fits into the larger CouchDB story of “Data where
>>> you need it.” — Not necessarily how the slogan made be “true” in the
context
>>> of CouchApps (e.g. “Data (and logic) where you need it.”, but more:
>>>
>>> - CouchDB’s core feature is geographically distributed replication.
>> Really?  That's the argument that lead to CouchBase.
> I’m a Couchbase co-founder and I can assure you you are mistaken.

Maybe I'm confused then.  Seems to me that CouchBase is a memcached 
front-end, with CouchDB style replication on the backend.  Serves one 
set of purposes, but very different from the initial way CouchDB is 
presented (back to "CouchDB, the Definitive Guide").  But maybe that's 
why you're now doing CouchBase, and not CouchDB or Cloudant.

>> Yes, MVCC w/ replication is A core feature, but, at least to me, Couch's core feature
is a full-featured HTTP interface -- everything is a resource, accessed through RESTful HTTP
operations.
> What is the one thing that make CouchDB unique? REST or Replication?

Why does it have to be one or the other.  To me, it's the combined set 
of features.  (Parenthetically, MVCC w/ replication is not unique to 
CouchDB - kind of goes back to Lotus Notes, which I believe inspired 
CouchDB :-)
>
> To wit, this isn’t about removing everything that isn’t replication. REST will stay
around, we may have other interfaces too at some point, but not anytime soon. Either way,
REST is not what makes CouchDB unique.
>
> I understand it is an important feature to you, much like many other features are very
important to other people. But overall, CouchDB’s unique feature is replication.

Well... that's YOUR opinion; granted an important one - but you might 
want to get a better sense of what the broader user base thinks.
> I’ve spent most of my time since 2007 advocating CouchDB to thousands of people in
person and even more online. CouchDB’s “AppServer” features are neither straightforward
nor does the term fit nicely. People are confused by the fact that there are three different
“couchapp” tools in various languages, that you need one of them to manage design docs,
just to query CouchDB (I’m sure glad we have mango now, where the steps are “create index,
start querying”, like in every other database). There is confusion of using “couchapp”
to manage views, when CouchApps mean so much more than just managing map/reduce functions.
I can go on for hours how this is confusing for first-time experiences that people have told
me and keep telling me.
>

What seems confusing is that the tooling is conflated with the AppServer 
features.

To use a perhaps poor analogy - Jetty is a Java App Server.  There are 
lots of Java IDEs that can be used to generate Java Apps. Somehow, 
people don't get confused about what Jetty does, just because there are 
multiple tool sets.

Personally, what I find confusing is why anyone used Python tooling to 
generate JavaScript webapps, to be loaded into an Erlang-based server.  
The logic behind erica, I kind of understand.

>> Rather than retire the term, or relegate it to obsucrity - market it aggressively!
 Perhaps to the the extent of changing the current tag line on couchdb.apache.org from "A
Database for the Web" to "A Database and Integrated App Server for the Web.”
> I’ll refer you to the “The Why of CouchDB” discussion in the marketing@ archives.
>
>

Can you provide a pointer?  I can't seem to find searchable archive of 
marketing@.  Thanks!

Miles

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra


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