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From Garren Smith <gar...@apache.org>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Mon, 11 May 2015 13:05:02 GMT
Alexander thank you. That is 100% correct nicely said.


> On 11 May 2015, at 3:01 PM, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, for intruding into your conversation, but let me throw you a
> thought I have.
> 
> Apache CouchDB, as it was said, is a volunteer project, where each
> committer takes care about what they personally likes or need for own
> business: Cloudnant contributors cares about cluster feature and
> stable core, Jan cares about simplicity of usage CouchDB with no
> confusing things, Robert Kowalski like to work mostly on frontend part
> of the project - sorry if I didn't explain precisely position and
> motivation of the each, but it doesn't matter. What I want to say, is
> everybody works on what they likes/need/feels important.
> 
> Obliviously, couchapp feature lacks of love, care and attention for
> quite long of time and there is no explicit leader to work on this
> feature and evangelist to promote. If couchapps feature is critical
> for Smileyupps business and they have ideas how to improve it and
> resources to maintain it, why not to take Cloudant as an example and
> become a contributor? I think, with such plan, everybody will win:
> CouchDB will get more powerful couchapps, Smileyupps will be able to
> be more attractive for their clientèle. And by the way, you eventually
> may help to solve confusion around couchapps.
> 
> Sounds like business-driven development, but I'd like to think about
> it as about inventions into open source for better business. After
> all, business successful features mostly may receive warm welcome by a
> community, while business specific will get cut off in order to have
> more general solution that fits most in the end.
> 
> Otherwise I see whole this discussion as arguing of two people where
> first continues keeps saying "we need couchapps! couchapps are cool!"
> and the second one responses "couchapps are full of flaws and
> confusion!". Without the one who will enter and say "Hey! Calm down,
> I'll sort all the problems" there wouldn't be any good solution and
> couchapps will die as technology by timeout: era of HTTP/2 is coming
> which going to change a lot of things, while I don't mention existed
> websockets.
> 
> So what do you think about?
> 
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com> wrote:
>> Hi Joan, thanks for your useful reminders. I think you hit the main point.
>> 
>> 2015-05-09 20:26 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>> 
>>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
>>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
>>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
>>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
>>> market for Apache CouchDB.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
>>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
>>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
>>> using the shared cluster service ....
>>> 
>> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
>>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
>>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
>>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
>>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
>>> of security rules *was*.
>>> 
>> 
>> From what you cc'ed and then say, it seems that CouchDB market should be
>> strictly the same as Cloudant market.. Is it this what Mike and you would
>> like to say? And if yes, why?
>> 
>> Why an Apache project, should strictly target companies with thousand to
>> millions dollars?
>> Is this allowed by "the apache way"?
>> Are there other Apache examples of company-driven project?
>> 
>> Sorry for all these questions but I am very very ignorant in this. I
>> thought a project should only be driven from its users as its most
>> important participants.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for your useful answers.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
>>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
>>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
>>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
>>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
>>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
>>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
>>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
>>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
>>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
>>> More information on this use is at:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>>> 
>>>> Let's be clear.
>>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
>>>> have
>>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
>>>> for
>>>> which we offer a solution.
>>>> 
>>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
>>>> and
>>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share some
>>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate to
>>>> their commercial extensions and services)?
>>>> 
>>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
>>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
>>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
>>>>> public ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
>>>>>> total
>>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
>>>>>> is driven.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and take
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> the devs@ list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
>>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertain
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
>>>>>> marketing more
>>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion
>>>>>> to user@
>>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> PMC hat on...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
>>>>>>> list to
>>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We
are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do,
and
>>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea
to
>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially
>>>>>>> keen to
>>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
>>>>>>> effort.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
>>>>>>> proposals
>>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop*
and
>>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
>>>>>>> helping you
>>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
>>>>>>> difficulties
>>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Joan
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
>>>>>>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features
of
>>>>>>>>> Couch
>>>>>>>>> apps.
>>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features
to
>>>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features
to
>>>>>>>> Fauxton)
>>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and
build
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi
>>>>>> www.smileupps.com
>>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Giovanni Lenzi
>> www.smileupps.com
>> Smileupps Cloud App Store


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