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From Joan Touzet <woh...@apache.org>
Subject Re: the future of couchapp
Date Sat, 09 May 2015 18:26:26 GMT
Hi Miles,

DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or
Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if
necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here).

*** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from
thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't
interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing
this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current
market for Apache CouchDB.

The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM
who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that
I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't
using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional
three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java,
.NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms
(iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to
the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios,
replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST
interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as
a third.

Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security
solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was
initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution
being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation,
CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement
of security rules *was*.

Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of
using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For
Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key
features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango
feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados)
picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of
CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps:
unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based
upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you
can view the product's documentation using the product itself).
More information on this use is at:

https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E





----- Original Message -----
> From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM
> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> 
> Let's be clear.
> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't
> have
> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems
> for
> which we offer a solution.
> 
> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research
> and
> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share some
> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate to
> their commercial extensions and services)?
> 
> Miles Fidelman
> 
> 
> 
> Giovanni Lenzi wrote:
> >> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"?
> > or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the
> > public ?
> >
> > 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>:
> >
> >> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a
> >> total
> >> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process
> >> is driven.
> >>
> >> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and take
> >> it to
> >> the devs@ list
> >>
> >> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for
> >> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow uncertain
> >>
> >> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe
> >> marketing more
> >> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to
> >> the
> >> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this discussion
> >> to user@
> >> or dev@, don't know what is preferable.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>:
> >>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> PMC hat on...
> >>>
> >>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING
> >>> list to
> >>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We are
> >>> not
> >>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, and
> >>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea to
> >>> have a
> >>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am especially
> >>> keen to
> >>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development
> >>> effort.
> >>>
> >>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those
> >>> proposals
> >>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* and
> >>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB
> >>> development
> >>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by
> >>> helping you
> >>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the
> >>> difficulties
> >>> that may be inherent in what you ask for.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Joan
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <g.lenzi@smileupps.com>
> >>>> To: marketing@couchdb.apache.org
> >>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp
> >>>>
> >>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of
> >>>>> Couch
> >>>>> apps.
> >>>> if possible, would be awesome :)
> >>>>
> >>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to
> >>>>> add
> >>>>> to
> >>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to
> >>>> Fauxton)
> >>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and build
> >>>> tools
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Giovanni Lenzi
> >> www.smileupps.com
> >> Smileupps Cloud App Store
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra
> 
> 

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