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From Noah Slater <>
Subject Re: Designs and decision making
Date Mon, 16 Mar 2015 15:49:38 GMT
Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any record wrt the existing logo
and brand. This was before we moved to Apache, and we were using some
old forum software.

And again, unfortunately, a lot of the branding conversation has been
reactive, and on a private list. i.e. What do we do about Foo Corp
who's causing us some brand problems. :)

There's also a number of conversations that happened off-list wrt what
our new direction should be. In the past, I have tried to bring those
to the list. If you search the archives for "What's our why?" you'll
find one of the most prominent ones.

I have more notes. I promised Jenn that I would share them, and I will
do so this week.

On 16 March 2015 at 08:25, Johs Ensby <> wrote:
> Thanks for this, Noah
> I fully support the “Doing design in OSS is different than writing code.”
> I clearly missed the mandate in the CouchDB bylaws (browsed ASF general docs only)
> It would be really interesting to here more about the process that led to the existing
logo and slogan.
> Where there any brief to start with, e.g. reasoning about then need for change?
> Any milestones to facilitate a step-wise progress?
> I acknowledge that you are exercising brand management by laying out some process guidlines,
and my comments are not meant as criticism.
> I dont see the record of previous experiences, “doing branding work” and “talking
about” still leaves this uncharted to me.
> johs
>> On 14 Mar 2015, at 13:33, Noah Slater <> wrote:
>> The PMC is responsible for branding, as outlined in our bylaws:
>> The PMC (myself and others) have been doing branding work, and talking
>> about branding for many years. So this is not uncharted waters for us.
>> Indeed, the current design was born of similar efforts a few years
>> ago.
>> In fact, it is this experience that is guiding me (and others on the
>> PMC) when we say that we do not want to open up the design process to
>> everyone, like we might do with a patch. Because we know what happens
>> when you do that. We've had a number of design efforts dead in the
>> water because people discussed it ad nauseam on the list.
>> Doing design in OSS is different than writing code. It does not lend
>> itself well to peer review in the same way that a patch does. Because
>> *everybody* and their dog feels like they have an opinion on a design.
>> That's why it's my preference is that people interested in working on
>> a brand/design refresh collaborate amongst themselves, taking input
>> from the community, and getting the final sign-off from the PMC.
>> On 13 March 2015 at 20:37, Johs Ensby <> wrote:
>>> Hi Noah,
>>>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <> wrote:
>>>> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <> wrote:
>>>>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>>>> What makes you say this?
>>> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
>>> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>>> I tried to drill down from
<> to find out if there was any formalized,
specific responsibilities and found none.
>>> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
>>> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
>>> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
>>> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific
>>> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>>>>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>>>> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
>>>> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
>>>> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
>>>> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>>>> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
>>>> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
>>>> model for a brand refresh.
>>> Competition was maybe not the best term.
>>> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage
it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
>>> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the
client” and deliver a proper proposal.
>>> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move
this forward.
>>>>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is
formally responsible for what we are discussing
>>>> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
>>>> us with trademarks. :)
>>> I understand.
>>> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he
could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
>>> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
>>> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice
on what we discuss here etc
>>>> --
>>>> Noah Slater
>>> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
>>> johs
>> --
>> Noah Slater

Noah Slater

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