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From Chintan Mishra <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] A direction from a non-contributor
Date Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:25:11 GMT
On 09/07/19 9:33 PM, Joan Touzet wrote:

> Hi Chintan,
> Reading through your proposal, I have one main point to make.
> At the Apache Software Foundation, the people who lead the projects are
> the people who do the work on them. We use the wrong word "meritocracy"
> to explain this principle; a better word would be "do-ocracy."
> That means that your project can completely proceed on its own if it
> wants to; the only thing over which you're not in control is whether
> that project gets to call itself CouchDB or not. That decision is
> reached by the people who have built CouchDB into what it is today.
I appreciate that you shared these links. I now understand what I have 
to do next.
> -----
> On that last point, there's a lot that would need to be done for you to
> convince the PMC that your vision is the one, true future of CouchDB.
> What you propose is both a significant rewrite, as well as requiring an
> entirely new set of skills from the developer base (Rust, MQTT, Kotlin,
> Swift).

 From Slack conversations, it appears the community has some inclination 
towards building a Rust based CouchDB some day. As for other 
technologies those changes are not happening today. I do not propose to 
start with all the changes at once. Storage engine is a good place to start.

>   It is in direct competition with the proposal being worked on
> this list for the FoundationDB backend swap. With the addition of MQTT,
> it sounds like the entire replication protocol and methodology would
> need to be revisited, as the semantic changes you're proposing would
> break existing client replication.
The HTTP replication protocol more or less remains the same in the 
foreseeable future. A new MQTT replication strategy will be built upon 
the existing method. The two will not work in parallel. Either one of 
these will work per database.
> Finally, the proposal to push into
> the mobile space would directly compete with our sister project PouchDB,
> who have put in tens of thousands of development hours as well.
The community will evolve at some point. And bringing people from sister 
project onto CouchDB will allow faster development. The diagram in the 
proposal missed a part for Web Browser based CouchDB. This missed part 
is an interface for JavaScript and CouchDB-Web Browser. So, we will need 
some JavaScript developers too. And they can help improve Fauxton.
>   This all
> adds up to a much bigger scoped project than CouchDB is today, and I
> daresay may be bigger than I think even you realize.

I do realize that I want CouchDB to be in a billion mobile and embedded 
device by 2025. I understand this is a challenging scale. I brought this 
here because I see how much we need a DB for a "Cluster Of Unreliable 
Commodity Hardware". I assume proposed path will take somewhere between 
18-21 months to come to fruition for a team of 15 people working 40 

> With my PMC hat on, I have to ask:
> * Do you already have developers versed in these skills you can bring to
>    the project (beyond yourself)? Are they ready to commit the 40+ hours
>    a week each to making it a reality?
No, I do not have a team in place for this.
> * Do you have experience in building a distributed system of this scale,
>    using the specific technologies you propose?
I have been reading about distributed systems. I want to take up an Open 
Source project which solves replication problem for devices coming up 
with emerging technologies.CouchDB is the best fit as it already solves 
theproblem of replication across remote devices.
> * How do you plan to convince other developers of your approach
>    specifically?

What got us(you) here, won't get us(you) there! -- Marshall Goldsmith

CouchDB led the way by being years ahead. This is just the same thing 
happening again in a newer market. CouchDB is already great at 
replication. What I am proposing is taking this simple-but-powerful 
methodology a step further and building it for planetary scale 
use-cases(idea derived from Lasp-Lang).Here are some ways with which we 
drive more developers, users, and eyes.

  * Helping users realize that CouchDB lets them relax while building
    applications for devices with any form factor.
  * Reaching out to the developers who have built their own solution for
    replicating stuff from their device of any form factor to CouchDB
  * On-boarding developers who will become early adopter and test it out
    on their IoT devices. Thus, proving an unmet market need.
  * Promoting offline-first strategy among mobile and embedded
    developers will drive contributors from these communities.
  * Documenting comparisons between existing mobile and embedded
    solutions which provide replication solutions like Realm, and CouchBase.

> * How do you intend to train up our existing developers on the new
>    languages and technologies involved?
If people are excited about the future they are building then this is a 
smaller problem to tackle. People in this community when and if they 
come to a consensus about the proposal then this can be tackled by 'Each 
one, teach one' followed by Yamaha Motors. This is a buddy system where 
people get new partners to tackle a problem/PR. They share issues, their 
understanding of the codebase and language, etc. with each other. As 
buddies rotate everyone gets on the same page after a few cycles. I have 
found 3-pair buddy system works best in software.But this may differ 
based on culture, language, timezone, and availability.
> * How do you perceive the advantages and disadvantages of your approach
>    *specifically* vs. the FDB approach already outlined?

Value addition (Horizontal) > >
Proposal (Vertical) \/ \/



  * Improving what works for majority of existing users
  * Iterates CouchDB to a better form
  * Prospect of immediate consistency for ACID transactions


  * Losing some small and mid-sized developers
  * Fragments community


  * Growth by tapping newer prospects
  * Reduces fragmentation of user community and codebase
  * Reimagines CouchDB as if it was built in 2019


  * Tons of work
  * Uses RocksDB, overlooks FoundationDB migration

Email with subject "CouchDb Rewrite/Fork" by 'Reddy B. 
<>' has mentioned some other concerns. This proposal 
introduces a new story for CouchDB. This proposal would require using 
RocksDB instead of FoundationDB.

> -Joan
> On 2019-07-09 10:28, Chintan Mishra wrote:
>> Hello team!!
>> Years of time and effort help move a product to the heights that CouchDB
>> has reached. And as a non-contributor, rather a very new CouchDB
>> user(1.5 years) who failed to find some relevant emails, I came up with
>> a version of the future for CouchDB that I thought would help us grow.
>> But Jan and Robert helped me realize that it takes a village to raise a
>> child(CouchDB). So this is a proposal to find a middle ground from where
>> we are headed and where the market is going next. The proposal I wrote
>> was solely driven by what I have read over the years about the growth of
>> the product and the community. I have attached the file or if you prefer
>> reading in a browser, then click here<>.
>> It will roughly take 4-5 minutes of your time. A proposed direction is
>> to start an entirely new project. That is not what I desire. I want to
>> join the community behind CouchDB not build a new one using it. My goal
>> from this proposal is to generate leverage by creating early mover
>> advantage and help grow the community.
>> Thanking you.
>> --
>> Chintan Mishra
>> Rebhu Computing
>> Founder and CEO

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