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From Robert Kowalski <...@kowalski.gd>
Subject Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create design@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)
Date Mon, 14 Sep 2015 17:35:43 GMT
Oh wow, so much feedback!

I think Jason and Jan (and also me with my initial post) are trying to
advocate a more positive way of giving feedback.

I would really recommend this talk which explains a lot of Human-Human
interactions in communities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSv7GIX-XQ0

I would be really interested in your feedback about it as a possible
building block for further discussions about Jan's and Jason's mails.



On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:

>
> > On 14 Sep 2015, at 18:49, ermouth <ermouth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"?
> >
> > Sorry, I played Civilization. What I learned was that saying ‘No’ at
> right
> > moment is much more important to have excellent score, then saying ‘Yes’
> > each time )
> >
> >> For example, in the oauth2 discussion
> >
> > As for oAuth, I think @CouchDB has a lot of readers, and asking them does
> > anyone use oauth, is more elegant way to decide should feature be
> dropped.
>
> I already know the answer :) — Also, why didn’t you bring that up in that
> thread?
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
> >
> > ermouth
> >
> > 2015-09-14 17:38 GMT+03:00 Jason Smith <jason.h.smith@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"?
> >>
> >> I think the "yes-and" style is more about continuing the momentum of the
> >> conversation, and also having fun!
> >>
> >> The "yes-and" style is independent of your opinion about the matter, or
> the
> >> facts of its consequences. To me, it is about being Socratic: say
> "Sure!"
> >> and then ask what the next steps are, or what the expected consequences
> >> will be.
> >>
> >> For example, in the oauth2 discussion, I think Jan used a bit of
> "yes-and"
> >> style, when he said "Yes, let's keep oauth2, provided a developer fixes
> its
> >> bugs; otherwise not." And I think the community collectively answered:
> >> "Yes, let's throw it out."
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:22 PM, ermouth <ermouth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other
> >>>> that we have the best of the project in mind
> >>>
> >>> If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are
> >>> stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with
> >>> current approach – he is right.
> >>>
> >>> I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle.
> Surely,
> >> he
> >>> trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely
> >> ortogonal
> >>> to trust.
> >>>
> >>> Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a solution.
> >>> Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t
> imagine,
> >>> how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing
> >> barbarian
> >>> in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’.
> >>>
> >>>> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired participating
> >> here
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want to
> >>> unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point out,
> >> that
> >>> if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by yourself
> >>> first.
> >>>
> >>>> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is false-positive
> >>> feedback, when you
> >>>> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas.
> >>>
> >>> Absolutely. +1000.
> >>>
> >>> ermouth
> >>>
> >>> 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <ermouth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way
> >>>>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness
is
> >>>> only
> >>>>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people
> >> are
> >>>>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general.
How
> >> can
> >>> we
> >>>>> avoid that?
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we
> >> have
> >>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem
> >> disagreeing
> >>>> with each other.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll leave
> the
> >>>> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good suggestions
> >> about
> >>>> our culture. How can  I improve that?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely.
> >>>>
> >>>> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy
> >>> excuses
> >>>> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called
> this
> >>> out
> >>>> in my original message, and now we already have a number of messages
> on
> >>>> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s
the
> >>> kind
> >>>> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best
> >>>> Jan
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ermouth
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Of course, this could have gone this way:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature
on how and
> >>> why
> >>>>>> this is supposed to work?”
> >>>>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …”
> >>>>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid
to say
> >>>> ‘but’,
> >>>>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid that?”
> >>>>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other,
that we
> >>>> have
> >>>>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem
> >>> disagreeing
> >>>>>> with each other.”
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working…
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best
> >>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <ermouth@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like
> >> “Starting
> >>>> post
> >>>>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract
tons of
> >>> contributors
> >>>>>>> with this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe,
> >> but
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable,
> >>>> then
> >>>>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions undiscussed
–
> >>>>>> nobody
> >>>>>>> dare to say ‘but’.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ermouth
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Jan
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback,
and it looks like
> >>> that
> >>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..."
feedback
> >>> styles
> >>>>>>>>> and how they are different?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls
our previous
> >>>>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for
picking on your
> >>>>>> example
> >>>>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I
don’t mean to
> >>>>>> re-play
> >>>>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single
out
> >> anyone
> >>> in
> >>>>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little):
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “But…”-style:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.”
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody
uses that.”
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “…”
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original
suggestion
> >>> leaves
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> project>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.”
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important!
We still
> >>> have
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@
mailing
> >>> list
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?”
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@
isn’t as
> >>> inviting a
> >>>>>>>> name as design@ is.”
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what
would be
> >> even
> >>>> more
> >>>>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine
that our
> >>> mailing
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin
with, maybe
> >>> we
> >>>>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> * * *
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style
is a lot more
> >>>>>> efficient,
> >>>>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the
first place, so
> >>>>>> cutting
> >>>>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that
our #1
> >> purpose
> >>>> as
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having
more
> >>> contributors
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term
success. It
> >>> makes
> >>>>>> sure
> >>>>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more
diverse ideas
> >>>> making
> >>>>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done
overall.
> >>>> Long-term,
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more
weeks, but it
> >>>> does
> >>>>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the
project right
> >>>>>> after,
> >>>>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest
or
> >> simply
> >>>>>> burned
> >>>>>>>> out.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> * * *
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best
> >>>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >>>>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
> --
> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB:
> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
>
>

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