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From ASF IRC Bot <>
Subject Summary of IRC Meeting in #couchdb-meeting
Date Thu, 18 Dec 2014 22:08:52 GMT
Summary of IRC Meeting in #couchdb-meeting at Thu Dec 18 20:05:23 2014:

Attendees: awenkhh, Kxepal, jan____, robertkowalski, chewbranca, strmpnk

- Preface
  - Info: CouchDB Day 2015 Hamburg
- CouchDB Day 2015 in Hamburg, Germany
  - Info: if you attend and would like to talk about CouchDB 2.0 or something please get in
touch with awenkhh (
  - Link:
  - Link:
- CouchDB 2.0
  - Action: strmpnk to post on dev@ ML his plan about dependencies reorganization
  - Link:
- Cloudant query aka mango contribution
- Fauxton
  - Link:
- Branding routines: logo, slogan
- Happy New 2015 Year

IRC log follows:

## Preface ##
[Thu Dec 18 20:06:13 2014] <awenkhh>: #info CouchDB Day 2015 Hamburg
[Thu Dec 18 20:06:23 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, so what will be the topics? CouchDB 2.0, CouchDB
Day in Hamburg I suppose, Mango, some year over report...what else?
[Thu Dec 18 20:07:45 2014] <awenkhh>: well Ican start with a short info about CouchDB
Day 2015 in Hamburg, Germany 
[Thu Dec 18 20:07:51 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, please propose any other topic on the way
## CouchDB Day 2015 in Hamburg, Germany ##
[Thu Dec 18 20:08:20 2014] <Kxepal>: awenkhh: so while you'd started...go on! (:
[Thu Dec 18 20:08:26 2014] <awenkhh>: So far the event is very well received. The page
can be found here
[Thu Dec 18 20:08:40 2014] <Kxepal>: #link
[Thu Dec 18 20:08:54 2014] <awenkhh>: robertkowalski an me are organising the day with
a lot of help from the CouchDB Community  
[Thu Dec 18 20:09:14 2014] <awenkhh>: we now have very cool sponsors and there are around
25 tickets left atm
[Thu Dec 18 20:09:33 2014] <awenkhh>: we expect to give them away in erly January 
[Thu Dec 18 20:09:48 2014] <awenkhh>: jan____ will be the keynote speaker
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:02 2014] <Kxepal>: \o/
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:06 2014] <awenkhh>: and as we plan to have two more talks, we are
looking for someone to speak 
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:17 2014] <awenkhh>: we would really love to have a CouchDB 2.0 talk
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:32 2014] <awenkhh>: so if you attend and would like to talk about
CouchDB 2.0
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:35 2014] <Kxepal>: awenkhh: is there any agenda about?
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:50 2014] <awenkhh>: please get in touch with me (
[Thu Dec 18 20:10:52 2014] <awenkhh>: yes ...
[Thu Dec 18 20:11:02 2014] <Kxepal>: cannot see it on website...
[Thu Dec 18 20:11:12 2014] <awenkhh>:
[Thu Dec 18 20:11:33 2014] <awenkhh>: we will post it soon but we want to fill the talk
gap before that 
[Thu Dec 18 20:11:40 2014] <Kxepal>: #link
[Thu Dec 18 20:11:53 2014] <jan____>: here now, sorry
[Thu Dec 18 20:12:04 2014] <Kxepal>: welcome to the party jan____ !
[Thu Dec 18 20:12:05 2014] <awenkhh>: hey jan____ ;-)
[Thu Dec 18 20:13:14 2014] <Kxepal>: #info  if you attend and would like to talk about
CouchDB 2.0 or something please get in touch with awenkhh (
[Thu Dec 18 20:13:31 2014] <Kxepal>: thanks awenkhh !
## CouchDB 2.0 ##
[Thu Dec 18 20:13:52 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, here we are
[Thu Dec 18 20:14:20 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: your turn (:
[Thu Dec 18 20:14:35 2014] <strmpnk>: I've been doing a little bit of development around
2.0 and found the build system lacking so I've got some work in progress on cleaning it up.
[Thu Dec 18 20:14:59 2014] <strmpnk>: With 2.0 we transitioned to using rebar to manage
most things with a simple configure script to setup a few settings.
[Thu Dec 18 20:15:32 2014] <strmpnk>: I've mostly focussed on cleaning up the couch
sub-repo and started working on getting the configure script to pass the proper settings through.
[Thu Dec 18 20:15:53 2014] <strmpnk>: What I'm interested in is people who have interesting
platforms or settings that they'd like to have supported.
[Thu Dec 18 20:16:14 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: what do you mean by "interesting platforms"?
[Thu Dec 18 20:16:15 2014] <strmpnk>: Part of it should be good defaults for common
systems. The other is appropriate flags to make it easy to override.
[Thu Dec 18 20:16:19 2014] <jan____>: I can do a FreeBSD test run
[Thu Dec 18 20:16:30 2014] <strmpnk>: Something people use. Doesn't have to be exotic.
[Thu Dec 18 20:17:10 2014] <Kxepal>: ah. can help with Gentoo, NixOS, FreeBSD too, CentOS
[Thu Dec 18 20:17:12 2014] <strmpnk>: Windows support is still up in the air since I
haven't tested rebar's port building system on that platform so I don't know if it will be
trivial but I'm hoping to give that a shot too.
[Thu Dec 18 20:17:55 2014] <Kxepal>: and also I think I'll could get a help for Fedora
[Thu Dec 18 20:18:15 2014] <strmpnk>: Beyond that stage, I'm also looking at reorganizing
dependencies and .app dependencies to allow pulling in couchdb as a rebar dep as well as building
it into a relx release.
[Thu Dec 18 20:18:36 2014] <strmpnk>: That will likely happen after 2.0 but if others
are interested in it I can try to push that through faster.
[Thu Dec 18 20:19:04 2014] <strmpnk>: It just requires enough code to be shifted around
that it might be safe to wait.
[Thu Dec 18 20:19:38 2014] <strmpnk>: The end goal is to make CouchDB a much better
citizen in the Erlang side of the world.
[Thu Dec 18 20:19:48 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: do you have a plan for reorganization?
[Thu Dec 18 20:20:42 2014] <Kxepal>: I think it's worth to post it on dev@ to raise
the discussion and let someone pick it if you don't have a time for
[Thu Dec 18 20:20:59 2014] <jan____>: yeah, +1
[Thu Dec 18 20:21:04 2014] <strmpnk>: It makes sense to have a clear DAG for the .app
files (each OTP application or repo under the top-level src/ dir after configure). The current
couch app is split between low and high level stuff.
[Thu Dec 18 20:21:28 2014] <jan____>: this is great work and worth sharing to the larger
dev team to see if anyone wants to chip in
[Thu Dec 18 20:21:39 2014] <awenkhh>: +1 cool!
[Thu Dec 18 20:21:40 2014] <jan____>: strmpnk: yes, that, and also document this, like
with a diagram and all :)
[Thu Dec 18 20:21:45 2014] <strmpnk>: The other changes are mostly missing deps and
possibly adding a src/ for the top level repo so it can bring the apache couchdb together
as intended while subcomponents can be reused.
[Thu Dec 18 20:22:12 2014] <strmpnk>: jan____: I've got some dot file generators that
look pretty scary in the current state but it's improving with time.
[Thu Dec 18 20:22:18 2014] <strmpnk>: One more thing, I was chatting with jan____ about
the ease of building couchjs. It might be worth bringing up node or io.js support for that.
[Thu Dec 18 20:22:35 2014] <strmpnk>: It specifically might make windows support that
much easier to deal with.
[Thu Dec 18 20:23:03 2014] <jan____>: good point, but significant work to get going
[Thu Dec 18 20:23:09 2014] <jan____>: so would not block on this for 2.0
[Thu Dec 18 20:23:35 2014] <strmpnk>: Yes. It's definitely a conversation for dev
[Thu Dec 18 20:23:54 2014] <strmpnk>: For 2.0 I'm focussed on the configure + rebar
defaults stuff.
[Thu Dec 18 20:24:03 2014] <jan____>: yeah, excellent
[Thu Dec 18 20:24:22 2014] <strmpnk>: But I'd be happy to include some of the other
work if people thing there are reasons to include it in the first 2.x release.
[Thu Dec 18 20:25:17 2014] <Kxepal>: #action strmpnk to post on dev@ ML his plan about
dependencies reorganization
[Thu Dec 18 20:25:28 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: I believe you don't mind for that (:
[Thu Dec 18 20:26:11 2014] <strmpnk>: Definitely don't mind. I've been meaning to but
time has been short since I started looking at this.
[Thu Dec 18 20:26:22 2014] <strmpnk>: Also I have one ticket for the rebar side open
[Thu Dec 18 20:26:44 2014] <strmpnk>: The repos need to be updated with some more work
but I'll track work there.
[Thu Dec 18 20:27:21 2014] <Kxepal>: #link
[Thu Dec 18 20:27:56 2014] <strmpnk>: That should be good. The rest of the discussion
can be on the ML or IRC if anyone wants to ping me directly.
[Thu Dec 18 20:28:45 2014] <jan____>: cool, thank you strmpnk, this is exciting stuff!
[Thu Dec 18 20:29:08 2014] <awenkhh>: yes - super cool strmpnk - thank you!
[Thu Dec 18 20:29:12 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: great! I believe you'd like also to contact
with djc, plemenkov and other package maintainers to receive feedback from them about building
[Thu Dec 18 20:30:12 2014] <strmpnk>: Thank you. Yes.
[Thu Dec 18 20:31:20 2014] <Kxepal>: cool. now about my part...
[Thu Dec 18 20:32:05 2014] <Kxepal>: I have a two main tasks for 2.0: fix eunit tests
and documentation update
[Thu Dec 18 20:33:03 2014] <Kxepal>: for eunit I'm slowly, but following chewbranca
review notes made for 1.x PR + backporting all etap changes made for 2.0 to fix broken tests
which currently simply disabled
[Thu Dec 18 20:33:44 2014] <Kxepal>: actually, review notes I'd already covered, now
it's the fixing part in progress
[Thu Dec 18 20:33:58 2014] <jan____>: wow!
[Thu Dec 18 20:34:19 2014] <Kxepal>: also I received a lot of valuable feedback about
eunit tests from Peter Lemenkov, who already picked them for 1.6.1 on Fedora
[Thu Dec 18 20:34:30 2014] <chewbranca>: Kxepal: nice!
[Thu Dec 18 20:34:57 2014] <Kxepal>: they works great, except few bugs + they runs on
very very very slow build servers causing failures by timeouts
[Thu Dec 18 20:36:17 2014] <Kxepal>: so I come to the idea to make two checks in make
file: one for common usage, which everyone will run and check-slow for build farms which injects
some timeout modifier
[Thu Dec 18 20:36:19 2014] <jan____>: nice
[Thu Dec 18 20:36:37 2014] <jan____>: that’s a good idea
[Thu Dec 18 20:36:54 2014] <awenkhh>: great work Kxepal +1
[Thu Dec 18 20:37:05 2014] <Kxepal>: so we'll be able to track QA for our code while
let it build on slow hosts where you actually don't care how fast it is...just need to build
it and test it
[Thu Dec 18 20:37:26 2014] <jan____>: yeah, that’s excellent
[Thu Dec 18 20:38:05 2014] <Kxepal>: I don't think I'll make a final PR on this year,
but will try for that, but we'll have two weeks holidays after so that's a lot of time to
finish all the stuff
[Thu Dec 18 20:38:21 2014] <jan____>: :D
[Thu Dec 18 20:38:26 2014] <Kxepal>: yea (:
[Thu Dec 18 20:38:55 2014] <jan____>: Kxepal: is that it for you end, or is there more?
[Thu Dec 18 20:39:22 2014] <Kxepal>: as about documentation it's also in slow progress
since I have to check every existed statement, add new ones, notice's just
in progress for now, but no results so far to share
[Thu Dec 18 20:39:42 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: yes, I think I'm done
[Thu Dec 18 20:39:57 2014] <awenkhh>: Kxepal unfortunately I do not have enough time
to really work on the docs
[Thu Dec 18 20:40:07 2014] <awenkhh>: but I am very happy to review what you have 
[Thu Dec 18 20:40:28 2014] <jan____>: cool, thanks Kxepal 
[Thu Dec 18 20:40:42 2014] <Kxepal>: awenkhh: that would be awesome because sometime
I feel lack on second pair of eyes (: will call you then
[Thu Dec 18 20:40:42 2014] <jan____>: I don’t have much to report, but I’d like
to move discussion on shipping 2.0 a little further.
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:00 2014] <awenkhh>: Kxepal please do!!!!
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:06 2014] <jan____>: I see that Cloudant has been tireless at moving
this forward on all fronts and that’s great to see
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:14 2014] <jan____>: they started even working on PouchDB today.
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:25 2014] <Kxepal>: oh wow
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:27 2014] <awenkhh>: wow !!!
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:30 2014] <strmpnk>: Nice
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:56 2014] <jan____>: specifically to work on CouchDB 2,0 compat
[Thu Dec 18 20:41:56 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: are they going to conquer the world?(:
[Thu Dec 18 20:42:05 2014] <jan____>: dunno :)
[Thu Dec 18 20:42:10 2014] <jan____>: I hope not :P
[Thu Dec 18 20:42:30 2014] <jan____>: that probably should have been [off]
[Thu Dec 18 20:42:37 2014] <Kxepal>: haha
[Thu Dec 18 20:42:37 2014] <awenkhh>: :D
[Thu Dec 18 20:43:11 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: so what about release dates? sorry for
[Thu Dec 18 20:43:29 2014] <jan____>: One thing I’m keen on, and we touched on it
already is understanding what a release would look like
[Thu Dec 18 20:44:03 2014] <jan____>: that includes: what bytes to ship, and it what
form, what the installation procedure looks like and what upgrades from 1.0 look like
[Thu Dec 18 20:44:48 2014] <jan____>: we kinda have the developer-preview branch, but
that’s not a good “release” and was put together in a hurry for ApacheCon EU.
[Thu Dec 18 20:46:03 2014] <jan____>: any thoughts? :)
[Thu Dec 18 20:47:11 2014] <Kxepal>: I think it's good idea to set it down what a release
would like
[Thu Dec 18 20:47:43 2014] <Kxepal>: collect all the todo stuff and set priorities to
them which goes with 2.0 and which are for 2.1 etc
[Thu Dec 18 20:48:05 2014] <jan____>: yeah, that sounds like a plan.
[Thu Dec 18 20:48:34 2014] <awenkhh>: +1
[Thu Dec 18 20:49:11 2014] <Kxepal>: call be pessimist, but I don't believe that 2.0
will be an ideal and a lot of people will go to upgrade onto. life showed that two-or-three
releases after major bump goes with a lot of hotfixes and are more suitable for production
[Thu Dec 18 20:49:47 2014] <Kxepal>: so probably we can account that moment to not try
to push everything to the single deadline
[Thu Dec 18 20:50:33 2014] <jan____>: in general that is true, but I think we have the
advantage that BigCouch is a production system, so a lot of small issues are already ironed
[Thu Dec 18 20:50:42 2014] <jan____>: not saying this isn’t gonna be hard, but yeah
[Thu Dec 18 20:50:58 2014] <Kxepal>: devil is in details, you know that
[Thu Dec 18 20:51:05 2014] <awenkhh>: but we also don't wanna hava a half baked release
- we wanna make a lot of "marketing loundness" with 2.0
[Thu Dec 18 20:51:07 2014] <strmpnk>: I'd also caution the 1.6.x upgrades to try 2.0
separately first before moving things directly over anyway. We might be able to do a 2.1 release
after to support upgrades to make this intention clearer.
[Thu Dec 18 20:51:09 2014] <jan____>: but generally I agree, we should get something
out that is good enough, but ca be free to add more things quickly in point releases
[Thu Dec 18 20:51:45 2014] <jan____>: strmpnk: what intention?
[Thu Dec 18 20:51:52 2014] <jan____>: why not support upgrades in 2.0?
[Thu Dec 18 20:52:04 2014] <jan____>: that’s something I’d say should be supported
[Thu Dec 18 20:52:23 2014] <awenkhh>: I personally would better wait one month to have
a maybe better release - when the feedback sucks ... that would be really unfortunate
[Thu Dec 18 20:52:38 2014] <awenkhh>: but waiting too long is for sure not a plan on
the other hand
[Thu Dec 18 20:52:48 2014] <strmpnk>: It's a lot of subtle breaking changes is all.
Our intention is to make clustering a first class feature so a lot of old couch-isms become
underscored with gotchas.
[Thu Dec 18 20:53:13 2014] <jan____>: I have a rough idea of getting a group of beta
testers that can help during the run up to 2.
[Thu Dec 18 20:53:17 2014] <jan____>: 2.0
[Thu Dec 18 20:53:30 2014] <strmpnk>: It's better to get the software a good "this is
2.0" release. The 1.x branch still works great for those that haven't been on clusters.
[Thu Dec 18 20:53:46 2014] <jan____>: maybe 10-30 people who use CouchDB in production
that helps us find issues with prerelease builds so we can make lifes for upgrades as easy
as possible
[Thu Dec 18 20:53:49 2014] <Kxepal>: would like to agree with strmpnk
[Thu Dec 18 20:53:50 2014] <jan____>: *lives
[Thu Dec 18 20:54:16 2014] <jan____>: strmpnk: that’s a good point. it might be that
2.0 users are more likely to start fresh
[Thu Dec 18 20:54:18 2014] <awenkhh>: heavy testing with production useres would be
a big advantafe !
[Thu Dec 18 20:54:20 2014] <Kxepal>: we also have open discussion about fate of os_daemons,
externals, query servers
[Thu Dec 18 20:54:26 2014] <Kxepal>: which people tend to use a lot
[Thu Dec 18 20:54:46 2014] <strmpnk>: Granted, if someone writes some awesome upgrade
logic I wouldn't block it. It just shouldn't block 2.0.
[Thu Dec 18 20:54:48 2014] <jan____>: but I’m not sure this is the right dichotomy:
on the one hand it is, seamless ugprades are a feature and as such push out hte release date
[Thu Dec 18 20:55:32 2014] <jan____>: but on the other hand, I am *very* afraid of the
Python 3 syndrome, so I want 2.0 to be as friendly as 1.x is for everyone, regardless of where
they are coming from
[Thu Dec 18 20:55:41 2014] <jan____>: strmpnk: dunno, what upgrade logic is required?
[Thu Dec 18 20:56:17 2014] <strmpnk>: mem3 shard mapping for legacy dbs mostly.
[Thu Dec 18 20:56:27 2014] <strmpnk>: Probably some configuration stuff that needs to
be checked.
[Thu Dec 18 20:57:21 2014] <jan____>: maybe a shortcut would be that in 2.0 the “upgrade”
is using the local interface and in 2.x we can add support ofr the cluster layers
[Thu Dec 18 20:57:32 2014] <chewbranca>: I still think recommending replication as an
upgrade mechanism is a good safe way to get people migrated, not saying it should be the only
but it could be useful as a recommendation for people testing things out or who want to get
up and running quickly
[Thu Dec 18 20:57:39 2014] <strmpnk>: Doing so is costly enough that it's probably good
to treat it as a one-way step but we could also support merging shards to go back.
[Thu Dec 18 20:58:00 2014] <strmpnk>: I'll have to check the disk format too but we
could do a release on 1.6.x to support anything new.
[Thu Dec 18 20:58:04 2014] <jan____>: strmpnk: uh, going back, heh *cough*
[Thu Dec 18 20:58:11 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: we already have python3 syndrome cos of
breaking changes for details and different setup. same /_config endpoint for example. but
still our situation is much better since you don't have to rewrite from scratch all couchdb
[Thu Dec 18 20:58:11 2014] <jan____>: would not make that a priority :)
[Thu Dec 18 20:59:29 2014] <jan____>: Kxepal: right, we have minor breakages (although
I’d seee a full list of old/new/changed endpoints as they are distributed over cluster and
local interface, because it is a lot more than originally proposed), but I want to make sure
it stays that way
[Thu Dec 18 21:00:51 2014] <jan____>: cool then, anything else?
[Thu Dec 18 21:01:20 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: I post some list already on ML (without
new ones, just about breaking changes), but it need to be updated since things are going to
[Thu Dec 18 21:03:04 2014] <jan____>: Kxepal: thanks, yeah, I kinda envision something
like a spreadsheet or something in table format that just lists it all to see at once
[Thu Dec 18 21:04:16 2014] <Kxepal>: trying to find it in archives...
[Thu Dec 18 21:06:09 2014] <Kxepal>: ETIMEOUT, sorry. will share after the meeting or
in the middle to not block it
[Thu Dec 18 21:06:38 2014] <jan____>: cool, let’s wrap this up
[Thu Dec 18 21:07:00 2014] <awenkhh>: everything sounds great!
[Thu Dec 18 21:07:43 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: I think we need to make this comparison
in wiki in anyway
[Thu Dec 18 21:07:51 2014] <Kxepal>: ML is bad place for it
[Thu Dec 18 21:07:59 2014] <jan____>: Kxepal: yea
[Thu Dec 18 21:09:12 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, so..anything else about 2.0?
[Thu Dec 18 21:10:25 2014] <Kxepal>: good, moving forward
[Thu Dec 18 21:10:27 2014] <strmpnk>: Do we have any 2.0 specific way to get feedback
on preview releases? It might be nice to know if anyone fails to get it working &c.
[Thu Dec 18 21:10:50 2014] <jan____>: strmpnk: not yet
[Thu Dec 18 21:10:58 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: I saw some reports about broken fauxton,
but we fixed that
[Thu Dec 18 21:11:14 2014] <Kxepal>: but nothing else
[Thu Dec 18 21:11:34 2014] <strmpnk>: I assume we could add a link to the setup endpoint
but maybe welcome could include a link. Anyway, just a last minute thought.
[Thu Dec 18 21:12:18 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: like curl -XPOST /_bug -d '"it doesn\'t
works at all!"' ?(:
[Thu Dec 18 21:12:56 2014] <Kxepal>: or /_feedback
[Thu Dec 18 21:13:49 2014] <Kxepal>: but anyway people who get devpreview knows how
to contact with us. or should know (:
## Cloudant query aka mango contribution ##
[Thu Dec 18 21:14:05 2014] <awenkhh>: strmpnk I like that idea !!!
[Thu Dec 18 21:14:51 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, we have a lot of requests to see cloudant query
feature in couchdb 2.0 and cloudant folks also would like to contribute it
[Thu Dec 18 21:15:18 2014] <Kxepal>: so to make this real we need to:
[Thu Dec 18 21:16:22 2014] <Kxepal>: 1. start the vote about (this didn't happened)
[Thu Dec 18 21:16:22 2014] <Kxepal>: 2. submit mango snapshot to IP Clearance by ASF
[Thu Dec 18 21:16:22 2014] <Kxepal>: 3. make it accept
[Thu Dec 18 21:16:22 2014] <Kxepal>: 4. ...
[Thu Dec 18 21:16:22 2014] <Kxepal>: 5. integrate it with couchdb 2.0
[Thu Dec 18 21:16:38 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: is that correct?
[Thu Dec 18 21:17:22 2014] <robertkowalski>: hi just returned from christmas market
[Thu Dec 18 21:17:31 2014] <robertkowalski>: i am on that topic sorry for the delay
[Thu Dec 18 21:17:52 2014] <robertkowalski>: i was not aware that there are still things
[Thu Dec 18 21:17:52 2014] <Kxepal>: welcome robertkowalski! Merry Christmas (:
[Thu Dec 18 21:18:16 2014] <awenkhh>: do we need to vote on this? and where?
[Thu Dec 18 21:18:28 2014] <awenkhh>: what kind of concensus do we need?
[Thu Dec 18 21:18:35 2014] <Kxepal>: according our policy yes, we need the vote, on
dev@ ML
[Thu Dec 18 21:18:55 2014] <robertkowalski>: regarding the 2.0 release (sorry for beeing
late): the fauxton team has some blockers where we currently wait if they will settle before
the 2.0 release
[Thu Dec 18 21:18:57 2014] <Kxepal>: and probably it's better to be started by someone
from Cloudant to make the things looks sane
[Thu Dec 18 21:18:58 2014] <robertkowalski>:
[Thu Dec 18 21:19:46 2014] <robertkowalski>: i will send the vote soon, i am just picking
up the loose ends on the cloudant and couchdb side
[Thu Dec 18 21:20:09 2014] <awenkhh>: unfortunately this link is dead:
[Thu Dec 18 21:21:12 2014] <Kxepal>: oh. need to be reported on INFRA
[Thu Dec 18 21:21:17 2014] <robertkowalski>: i started to work for cloudant in october,
and i will take care of this topic
[Thu Dec 18 21:22:09 2014] <awenkhh>: robertkowalski very cool - but you will need assistance
from the VP or a member for the IP clearance stuff 
[Thu Dec 18 21:22:26 2014] <awenkhh>: would be cool to write to the thread Joan opened

[Thu Dec 18 21:22:53 2014] <awenkhh>: ... in private@
[Thu Dec 18 21:23:14 2014] <robertkowalski>: awenkhh: yes, jan____ will help me
[Thu Dec 18 21:23:33 2014] <jan____>: I’m on it no worries :)
[Thu Dec 18 21:23:35 2014] <robertkowalski>: awenkhh: i started yesterday
[Thu Dec 18 21:24:03 2014] <awenkhh>: *respond
[Thu Dec 18 21:24:49 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: cool! congrats (: if you can push
it forward that would be awesome
[Thu Dec 18 21:24:56 2014] <robertkowalski>: basically i don't have anything further
to report as i just started
[Thu Dec 18 21:25:06 2014] <awenkhh>: robertkowalski +1
[Thu Dec 18 21:26:36 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, moving to Fauxton topic? robertkowalski
## Fauxton ##
[Thu Dec 18 21:29:01 2014] <robertkowalski>: ok
[Thu Dec 18 21:29:11 2014] <robertkowalski>: so we are making good progress in fauxton
[Thu Dec 18 21:29:22 2014] <robertkowalski>: there are some issues for 2.0 tat are blockers
[Thu Dec 18 21:29:33 2014] <robertkowalski>:
is one of them
[Thu Dec 18 21:29:53 2014] <Kxepal>: #link
[Thu Dec 18 21:30:04 2014] <Kxepal>: yea, fauxton becomes better day by day
[Thu Dec 18 21:30:14 2014] <robertkowalski>: they basially all deal with multiple nodes
and fauxton posting to them in front of a (round robin) load balancer
[Thu Dec 18 21:30:52 2014] <robertkowalski>: the last idea for the configuration section
was to use etcd (from coreOS) - a raf consensus key/value store for the config
[Thu Dec 18 21:31:05 2014] <robertkowalski>: the topic is discussed at
[Thu Dec 18 21:31:52 2014] <Kxepal>: sounds cool, but I don't think we could get etcd
[Thu Dec 18 21:31:53 2014] <jan____>: didn’t aphyr rip their failure modes into shreds?
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:06 2014] <Kxepal>: also good point (:
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:10 2014] <robertkowalski>: and currently our options are: deleting
the module from fauxton, writing a message next to it that it does not work or waiting until
the release if mabe someone with more backend experience solved our problem
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:25 2014] <Kxepal>:
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:28 2014] <jan____>:
might not apply to our use case
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:32 2014] <Kxepal>: P:
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:35 2014] <jan____>: they also might have fixed things
[Thu Dec 18 21:32:48 2014] <robertkowalski>: and we decided to wait, as we don't see
a release in the next week currently.
[Thu Dec 18 21:33:37 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: you seems miss couchdb 2.0 topic....((:
[Thu Dec 18 21:34:34 2014] <robertkowalski>: Kxepal: can you explain this?
[Thu Dec 18 21:34:39 2014] <Kxepal>: I think the only idea which might works fine there
is to make /_config as database which will replicate over the cluster node with some builtin
filter which strips node specifics settings
[Thu Dec 18 21:34:46 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: nvm
[Thu Dec 18 21:35:25 2014] <Kxepal>: but still a work to do
[Thu Dec 18 21:36:15 2014] <robertkowalski>: yes. we decided to wait for a final decision,
as deleting or adding a message ("this does not work") is a task of 1hr including review
[Thu Dec 18 21:36:21 2014] <strmpnk>: I can see a lot of edge cases popping up like
lack of write permission on the config file but the db showing the proper value.
[Thu Dec 18 21:36:47 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: we also have an idea to move away from
config files
[Thu Dec 18 21:37:23 2014] <Kxepal>: so this eventually could help with
[Thu Dec 18 21:37:40 2014] <strmpnk>: Kxepal: I have a bit to say about that with regard
to release embedding but I'd be curious to see this discussion develop in the open. Possibly
better on the ML?
[Thu Dec 18 21:37:52 2014] <robertkowalski>: yes, i like that idea
[Thu Dec 18 21:38:04 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: sure, that's need to be discussed on ML
[Thu Dec 18 21:39:02 2014] <robertkowalski>: just to get some opinions
[Thu Dec 18 21:39:25 2014] <robertkowalski>: what wuld the attendees of this meeting
think about a fauxton without the option to configure couch?
[Thu Dec 18 21:39:40 2014] <robertkowalski>: (we delete the module)
[Thu Dec 18 21:39:50 2014] <awenkhh>: hm ...
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:02 2014] <awenkhh>: so just configure it via the ini files?
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:10 2014] <strmpnk>: +1 though it'd be create to see it be read-only
at least and the possibility to make it work in the future with the proper installation.
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:11 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: that would be bad since onfly configuring
from web is an important feature
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:28 2014] <jan____>: I’d say this would be an acceptable thing for
2.0 — and something we can add in 2.1 or later.
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:38 2014] <jan____>: good call on read-only with instructions on how
to change things
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:46 2014] <awenkhh>: jup!
[Thu Dec 18 21:40:59 2014] <strmpnk>: s/create/great/
[Thu Dec 18 21:41:15 2014] <robertkowalski>: i am +1 on deleting the feature as a serious
production would include configuration management anyway for the nodes which would place the
config files on the nodes
[Thu Dec 18 21:41:54 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: but we also have a single node
mode, remember?
[Thu Dec 18 21:42:20 2014] <robertkowalski>: good call!
[Thu Dec 18 21:42:39 2014] <robertkowalski>: maybe config via web just for single node
[Thu Dec 18 21:42:57 2014] <awenkhh>: I don't know the eco system of 2.0 good enough
but wouldn't it be great to see the configuration of each node in Fauxton? Read only ?
[Thu Dec 18 21:43:22 2014] <awenkhh>: not sure if that's doable at all 
[Thu Dec 18 21:43:47 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: that's makes a sense. and disable
it when Fauxton is able to detect that it runs on cluster
[Thu Dec 18 21:43:51 2014] <awenkhh>: I mean it's an admin interface still where I expect
info about my cluster
[Thu Dec 18 21:44:05 2014] <robertkowalski>: awenkhh: from the browser (where fauxton
lives) we can not post to 1-x (maybe 130) nodes to get a config
[Thu Dec 18 21:44:29 2014] <Kxepal>: awenkhh: summary dashboard is an future feature.
to make it we should first fix /_stats for cluster iface
[Thu Dec 18 21:44:30 2014] <awenkhh>: not in one shot no 
[Thu Dec 18 21:44:55 2014] <awenkhh>: but you will know which nodes you have somewhere

[Thu Dec 18 21:45:18 2014] <Kxepal>: awenkhh: behind haproxy you wouldn't be able reach
[Thu Dec 18 21:45:18 2014] <awenkhh>: and then you can get details per node as requested
I imagine ... but that's maybe a discussion for the ML 
[Thu Dec 18 21:45:39 2014] <strmpnk>:  /_healthcheck would be nice but I don't see it
blocking early adopters.
[Thu Dec 18 21:45:52 2014] <awenkhh>: hm ... as I said ... not sure if know enough yet
[Thu Dec 18 21:45:55 2014] <awenkhh>: so nvm
[Thu Dec 18 21:46:35 2014] <robertkowalski>: regarding 2.0 taht's it from the fauxton
[Thu Dec 18 21:46:43 2014] <strmpnk>: For what it's worth, we should try hard to get
clusters setup easily and correctly from the installation process. Doing it in fauxton is
not a requirement.
[Thu Dec 18 21:47:23 2014] <robertkowalski>: we are also looking into other options
to render our views, and are in love with react.js for our views - garren will post to the
ML in the next days.
[Thu Dec 18 21:47:42 2014] <robertkowalski>: strmpnk: i agree
[Thu Dec 18 21:47:56 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: yes, that's what jan____ /_setup does
[Thu Dec 18 21:48:04 2014] <strmpnk>: :-)
[Thu Dec 18 21:48:12 2014] <Kxepal>: Fauxton just provides more nicer way to work with
[Thu Dec 18 21:48:20 2014] <strmpnk>:  /____jan is a 3.0 API.
[Thu Dec 18 21:48:30 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: are you going to replace backbone
with react.js in near future? (:
[Thu Dec 18 21:48:40 2014] <Kxepal>: strmpnk: ahaha! great!
[Thu Dec 18 21:49:17 2014] <robertkowalski>: we have some issues regarding the classic
backbone views (bugs, alot of bugs and complexity) and figuring out how we could iterativley
release better versions of fauxton
[Thu Dec 18 21:49:31 2014] <jan____>: lol
[Thu Dec 18 21:50:18 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: I like this idea
[Thu Dec 18 21:50:23 2014] <robertkowalski>: basically backbone views, creating other
subviews create giant trees of views in the current setup we have
[Thu Dec 18 21:50:25 2014] <jan____>: /____jan would be a nice easter egg
[Thu Dec 18 21:51:12 2014] <robertkowalski>: and fauxton got too complex over the years,
we bascially also outgrown our framework and our development process got slower as we want
to include more complex features
[Thu Dec 18 21:51:12 2014] <awenkhh>: ha ha :D
[Thu Dec 18 21:52:06 2014] <robertkowalski>: we will post to the mailinglist very soon
but we are aware of the issues you have with fauxton (hi alex ;) ) and we want to improve
[Thu Dec 18 21:52:36 2014] <Kxepal>: robertkowalski: hi Robert (: look forward for it!
[Thu Dec 18 21:53:17 2014] <robertkowalski>: the nice thing is that we could do that
iterativly and don't have to do a full rewrite
[Thu Dec 18 21:53:48 2014] <robertkowalski>: </fauxton team>
[Thu Dec 18 21:53:49 2014] <Kxepal>: ok, we're beein running for two hours lets run
shortly over one last topic and take it over
[Thu Dec 18 21:55:03 2014] <Kxepal>: thanks, robertkowalski! that's sounds really good
plan. hope you'll make it (:
[Thu Dec 18 21:55:20 2014] <awenkhh>: yeah - very cool !!! +1
## Branding routines: logo, slogan ##
[Thu Dec 18 21:56:15 2014] <Kxepal>: that's holywar topic, so I'll be short
[Thu Dec 18 21:56:20 2014] <robertkowalski>: garren did all the research!
[Thu Dec 18 21:56:33 2014] <awenkhh>: Kxepal oh thats another two hours ;-)
[Thu Dec 18 21:56:39 2014] <Kxepal>: we're collecting ideas about new CouchDB logo and
slogan on marketing@ ML
[Thu Dec 18 21:56:57 2014] <Kxepal>: so if you have anything - join there!
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:02 2014] <robertkowalski>: yes, sean barclay did some really cool
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:12 2014] <awenkhh>: I appreciate the work on it a lot
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:17 2014] <robertkowalski>: and sent some proposals
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:24 2014] <awenkhh>: the suggestions have become better and better
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:36 2014] <jan____>: I like Noah’s latest summary on the why/how/what
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:41 2014] <awenkhh>: although I am not sure if we are near a target
or miles away
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:48 2014] <awenkhh>: jan____ yes !
[Thu Dec 18 21:57:55 2014] <jan____>: The logo suggestions are getting better as well
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:11 2014] <awenkhh>: but we are not there imho
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:15 2014] <jan____>: but I also feel that just the couch with the name,
without the Dude is a good iteration
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:25 2014] <Kxepal>: yea, hope finally we'll find our sweet spot
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:28 2014] <robertkowalski>: jan____: i also like that!
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:28 2014] <jan____>: maybe we can do the more radical rebrand for later
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:33 2014] <jan____>: -for
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:39 2014] <awenkhh>: good idea 
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:44 2014] <Kxepal>: jan____: iterative rebranding is also the way to
handle it
[Thu Dec 18 21:58:45 2014] <awenkhh>: on the other hand ...
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:03 2014] <awenkhh>: with 2.0 we would have a massive reachout 
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:05 2014] <jan____>: THERE IS NO OTHER HAND
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:13 2014] <awenkhh>: pah! :D
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:17 2014] <Kxepal>: there are only two hands (:
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:22 2014] <jan____>: (sorry )
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:31 2014] <jan____>: awenkhh: sure, but we also have a lot to get across
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:39 2014] <awenkhh>: on the other side ... 
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:40 2014] <jan____>: aybe keep the logo for more radical changes down
the road
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:43 2014] <awenkhh>: ;-)
[Thu Dec 18 21:59:44 2014] <jan____>: *maybe
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:01 2014] <jan____>: (I have some ideas :)
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:04 2014] <awenkhh>: I personally see no need to change the logo at
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:08 2014] <jan____>: how many sides does your hand have? :D
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:19 2014] <awenkhh>: but I understand why people would like to change
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:25 2014] <jan____>: (sorry, it’s late here)
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:26 2014] <awenkhh>: many many - belive me :D
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:33 2014] <jan____>: nah, getting rid of the dude isa  good idae
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:37 2014] <jan____>: *idea
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:42 2014] <awenkhh>: I know 
[Thu Dec 18 22:00:56 2014] <awenkhh>: but it's hard to get something new 
[Thu Dec 18 22:01:12 2014] <awenkhh>: I just mean that when we change sth then the 2.0
release would be great 
[Thu Dec 18 22:01:24 2014] <awenkhh>: changing just a little is not a good idea I think.

[Thu Dec 18 22:01:45 2014] <awenkhh>: mybe we leav it for later all together ... but
that's a discussion for the ML again 
[Thu Dec 18 22:01:59 2014] <awenkhh>: *maybe
[Thu Dec 18 22:02:25 2014] <Kxepal>: agree, let's discuss it on ML. it's not a simple
topic for IRC (:
[Thu Dec 18 22:02:26 2014] <jan____>: maybe the couch without the dude that repeats
into infinity
[Thu Dec 18 22:02:31 2014] <robertkowalski>: maybe we don't need something complete
[Thu Dec 18 22:02:32 2014] <jan____>: but yeah, this is ML material
[Thu Dec 18 22:02:37 2014] <robertkowalski>: just iterating on that what we have
[Thu Dec 18 22:02:42 2014] <robertkowalski>: in small steps
[Thu Dec 18 22:03:01 2014] <robertkowalski>: (for the current timeframe)
[Thu Dec 18 22:03:07 2014] <awenkhh>: I am always a bit of a  all or nothing guy 
[Thu Dec 18 22:03:13 2014] <awenkhh>: but let's see  .... 
[Thu Dec 18 22:03:20 2014] <awenkhh>: I like it LOUD !!!
[Thu Dec 18 22:03:30 2014] <awenkhh>: with a lot of BANG
[Thu Dec 18 22:03:51 2014] <awenkhh>: I guess that's it for this topic ok?
[Thu Dec 18 22:04:04 2014] <Kxepal>: no, it was a reminder about (:
[Thu Dec 18 22:04:26 2014] <Kxepal>: moving to the last one
[Thu Dec 18 22:04:32 2014] <awenkhh>: well ... ;-)
## Happy New 2015 Year ##
[Thu Dec 18 22:05:41 2014] <Kxepal>: since this is our the last meeting in 2014 I'd
like to congrats everyone with Merry Christmas and happy new year and say that 2014 was amazing
year for CouchDB
[Thu Dec 18 22:06:14 2014] <Kxepal>: also Lena collecting stuff for weekly news about
most amazing things happened in CouchDB universe in this year
[Thu Dec 18 22:06:26 2014] <Kxepal>: if you have something, share it with marketing@
[Thu Dec 18 22:06:49 2014] <awenkhh>: yeah thanks to everybody for making this an awesome
CouchDB year!
[Thu Dec 18 22:07:34 2014] <Kxepal>: great work everyone! let's make 2015 even more
awesome with 2.0 release and more features!
[Thu Dec 18 22:07:49 2014] <awenkhh>: +1
[Thu Dec 18 22:07:55 2014] <Kxepal>: wish you and us the best (:
[Thu Dec 18 22:08:40 2014] <Kxepal>: ASFBot: meeting stop

Meeting ended at Thu Dec 18 22:08:40 2014

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