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From Noah Slater <nsla...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
Date Wed, 29 Oct 2014 23:48:02 GMT
On 29 October 2014 22:37, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why do you think that following of bad imaginations of the few ones is
> the right way to handle problems?

I'm not too worried about offending people. My concern here is about
the image we project to the outside world. I want to send the message
that we're an inclusive, welcoming group of people. Evidently, some
people are looking at the logo, seeing something that some of us have
not seen before, and thinking "hmm, doesn't seem like I belong there."

> Are you sure that removing a relaxed
> person won't cause any other branding issues (hi Couchbase!)?

It's our logo. I think we can remove the dude from it fairly harmlessly. :)

> Changing color to blue - looks like we're going to cross Cloudant street.

Good point.

> I suggest to not rush in this question and leave it as is for now
> since it isn't broken, people likes it

Actually, what started this thread was a number of individuals feeling
comfortable enough to speak to Joan about their perception of our
logo. One which I now share. So I'd say it is broken, and needs
fixing.

> and there is no urgency on this

There is some urgency here. 2.0 is our best shot at a successful rebrand.

> We have more important issues to work on.

Please don't derail this effort. We're not all required to work on the
same thing. Other people are free to continue working on whatever part
of the project interests them.

On 29 October 2014 23:12, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:

> We already did: no serious issues were found, people likes current
> one

That's not the view I have of this thread. It seems to me like there
was a broad consensus that we look into this.

> Also moving this proposal out of community-driven users@ to developers
> specific ML is not fair since you strips the feedback of significant
> part of our users.

users@ is a support forum for end-users of CouchDB. It's not the
appropriate place to solicit feedback on (potentially controversial)
rebranding efforts. It was already turning into a bit of a peanut
gallery type thing.

On 29 October 2014 22:57, Andy Wenk <andywenk@apache.org> wrote:

> Noah, I don't think we will have any advantage if we simply remove the man
> from the logo. I prefer to let a designer work on this. How about starting
> a call for new logo? Let's make a small competition and let the community
> choose the logo out of a preselection. We should for sure find a way to
> decline the vote for a new logo if it really sucks ...

Seems to me like the obvious approach. But I'm also very interested to
see what Sean comes up with. So thanks for that, Joan!

On 29 October 2014 23:12, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org> wrote:
> FYI after the multiple suggestions we have someone competent look at
> logo design, I've asked Sean Barclay, lead UX at Cloudant, to have his
> team look at working up some possible logo ideas. They have the talent
> that we don't, and the interest in exploring new designs.  They've also
> been working up some colour designs and schemes for Fauxton, so it can't
> hurt to have this work done in the same scope.  Sounds like they'll have
> time to look at it starting next week.
>
> Obviously we are under no obligation to accept anything they do.  But it
> can't hurt to have them explore it.
>
> -Joan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Wenk" <andywenk@apache.org>
> To: dev@couchdb.apache.org
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 5:57:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
>
> Alex,
>
> it is a serious topic and it should be discussed. I am against taking it to
> the side. I know there are many other topics the community is working on.
> But this is important also.
>
> Noah, I don't think we will have any advantage if we simply remove the man
> from the logo. I prefer to let a designer work on this. How about starting
> a call for new logo? Let's make a small competition and let the community
> choose the logo out of a preselection. We should for sure find a way to
> decline the vote for a new logo if it really sucks ...
>
> The winner would receive the honour to be the creator of the new CouchDB
> logo and would be mentioned prominently.
>
> What do others think about this idea?
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 29 October 2014 22:37, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why do you think that following of bad imaginations of the few ones is
>> the right way to handle problems? Are you sure that removing a relaxed
>> person won't cause any other branding issues (hi Couchbase!)? Changing
>> color to blue - looks like we're going to cross Cloudant street.
>>
>> I suggest to not rush in this question and leave it as is for now
>> since it isn't broken, people likes it and there is no urgency on
>> this. We have more important issues to work on.
>>
>> --
>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org> wrote:
>> > Hi folks!
>> >
>> > (Dropping user@, as this isn't really a topic for that list.)
>> >
>> > CouchDB 2.0 is an *obvious* target for a brand refresh. Lets seize it
>> > if we want to make changes.
>> >
>> > I think the complaints are valid, though I baulked at first also. But
>> > that's because I'm attached to our brand.
>> >
>> > It's also important to note that his pose and his haircut gender him.
>> > (It's clearly a him. For people who might not've been around when we
>> > adopted this logo, he even has a name. He's called "the dude".) Not to
>> > mention that he is white.
>> >
>> > So yeah. We have a logo with a white dude sitting in a sexually
>> > suggestive pose. Obviously, nothing was ever meant by it. But this
>> > certainly isn't an image that reflects the sort of culture that we
>> > want to build going forward.
>> >
>> > I propose we simply remove the person. The image that Paul linked is
>> > good. I'd be happy with the logo as-is, without the dude. It's a
>> > fairly minor graphical tweak, and if we time it right, represents an
>> > evolution of our brand as well as our product.
>> >
>> > I'm tempted to suggest a colour change. But that's only to
>> > differentiate our logo from Couchbase. It's rather unfortunate that
>> > they chose a logo so similar to ours (recently bringing it even closer
>> > in terms of colour). Slightly ironic, given Jen's comment. ;)
>> >
>> > Blue is nice. :) But then that tempts me to change the name too. I
>> > mean, if we're ever going to do this, now is the time. It's important
>> > to note though that we have a very STRONG brand, and changing it in a
>> > big will be expensive.
>> >
>> > Just removing the person from the logo sees like a simple, inexpensive
>> > change though.
>> >
>> > On 28 October 2014 12:52, Jason Smith <jason.h.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I have been thinking about Brad's point for a long time now. What
>> exactly
>> >> is relaxing? Since CouchDB came out, web APIs, NoSQL and JavaScript have
>> >> become [more] mainstream. Today's users are not impressed that they can
>> >> store an unstructured JSON blob, or that they can use JavaScript on the
>> >> server.
>> >>
>> >> I am torn about Joan's observations. On the one hand, I'd hate to
>> >> over-steer, to make a big change because a tiny minority of people
>> >> interpret a bit of art a particular way. But on the other hand, Joan
>> would
>> >> be the first person most people come to with such an issue. Maybe she
>> has a
>> >> better perspective; she detects a problem that I can't see.
>> >>
>> >> For now though, my provisional position is to agree with Benoit about
>> the
>> >> art, and Brad about the tagline. The man thinks he is alone. He is doing
>> >> what people do when they relax. We are spying on that behavior, and
>> that is
>> >> what makes it real and convincing. The man is not a sales rep with a
>> >> dubious promise of relaxation. He really is relaxing.
>> >>
>> >> I don't plan to post again, simply because of bike shedding. I'm fine
>> with
>> >> any decision. But I suggest: as long as the tagline is "relax," keep the
>> >> logo. Discuss changing the tagline (and also the logo), and even put a
>> >> project rename on the table while we're here. (This has been discussed
>> >> before, there are some good arguments.)
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Brad Noble <bradn@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Suggestive as it may be, the logo clearly embodies the idea of "relax."
>> >>> Specifics of the image aside, is "relax" what we want people to think
>> of
>> >>> when they think of CouchDB? To me, the idea that CouchDB is about
>> >>> relaxation is outmoded. A good thought for the beginnings, but not for
>> the
>> >>> long-haul. If not relaxation, then what?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Green ---10/27/2014 09:19:07
>> >>> PM---I think it would be interesting just to get rid of the
>> person]Bryan
>> >>> Green ---10/27/2014 09:19:07 PM---I think it would be interesting just
>> to
>> >>> get rid of the person altogether and have some sort of styli
>> >>>
>> >>> From: Bryan Green <dbryan.green@gmail.com>
>> >>> To: dev@couchdb.apache.org, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
>> >>> Cc: user@couchdb.apache.org
>> >>> Date: 10/27/2014 09:19 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it would be interesting just to get rid of the person
>> altogether
>> >>> and have some sort of stylized couch.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bryan Green aka "lispyone"
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > At 3 different conferences I've attended in 2014: CloudantCON 2014,
>> >>> > OSCON 2014 and Velocity NYC 2014, I've been approached by people
>> >>> > complaining about the CouchDB logo. The argument is that the logo
>> looks
>> >>> > like a man who is posed in a suggestive way, or as one person put
it,
>> >>> > "showing you his crotch and inviting you over."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > These were not lighthearted expressions of concern to me over drinks
>> -
>> >>> > they were heartfelt complaints from people who care about CouchDB
and
>> >>> > its image in the open source community.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I must admit I didn't think it was an issue at first, but like
the
>> >>> > saying goes, once you've seen it, you can't un-see it.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > As a reminder here is our current logo:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.png
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Or in SVG:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.svg
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I'd like to propose improving the logo with a new drawing that
keeps
>> the
>> >>> > same theme - red couch, reclining figure in white - but alters
the
>> pose
>> >>> > to be a bit less suggestive. Other suggestions are welcome,
>> naturally,
>> >>> > but a redrawn current-style logo probably has the least objections.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Of course, if we agree to such a change, I'll need your help. I
can't
>> >>> > draw, and I'm sure many of the rest of you can't either. If you're
an
>> >>> > artist, and you agree, would you consider posting an altered logo
in
>> >>> > reply to this thread that fixes the problem?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > You can find all of the source files (Adobe Illustrator) at:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >   https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -Joan
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Noah Slater
>> > https://twitter.com/nslater
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
>  https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc



-- 
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater

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