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From Andy Wenk <andyw...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
Date Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:34:13 GMT
see inline please ...

On 30 October 2014 00:48, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org> wrote:

> On 29 October 2014 22:37, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Why do you think that following of bad imaginations of the few ones is
> > the right way to handle problems?
>
> I'm not too worried about offending people. My concern here is about
> the image we project to the outside world. I want to send the message
> that we're an inclusive, welcoming group of people. Evidently, some
> people are looking at the logo, seeing something that some of us have
> not seen before, and thinking "hmm, doesn't seem like I belong there."
>
> > Are you sure that removing a relaxed
> > person won't cause any other branding issues (hi Couchbase!)?
>
> It's our logo. I think we can remove the dude from it fairly harmlessly. :)
>
> > Changing color to blue - looks like we're going to cross Cloudant street.
>
> Good point.
>
> > I suggest to not rush in this question and leave it as is for now
> > since it isn't broken, people likes it
>
> Actually, what started this thread was a number of individuals feeling
> comfortable enough to speak to Joan about their perception of our
> logo. One which I now share. So I'd say it is broken, and needs
> fixing.
>
> > and there is no urgency on this
>
> There is some urgency here. 2.0 is our best shot at a successful rebrand.
>
> > We have more important issues to work on.
>
> Please don't derail this effort. We're not all required to work on the
> same thing. Other people are free to continue working on whatever part
> of the project interests them.
>
> On 29 October 2014 23:12, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > We already did: no serious issues were found, people likes current
> > one
>
> That's not the view I have of this thread. It seems to me like there
> was a broad consensus that we look into this.
>
> > Also moving this proposal out of community-driven users@ to developers
> > specific ML is not fair since you strips the feedback of significant
> > part of our users.
>
> users@ is a support forum for end-users of CouchDB. It's not the
> appropriate place to solicit feedback on (potentially controversial)
> rebranding efforts. It was already turning into a bit of a peanut
> gallery type thing.
>

+1


> On 29 October 2014 22:57, Andy Wenk <andywenk@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Noah, I don't think we will have any advantage if we simply remove the
> man
> > from the logo. I prefer to let a designer work on this. How about
> starting
> > a call for new logo? Let's make a small competition and let the community
> > choose the logo out of a preselection. We should for sure find a way to
> > decline the vote for a new logo if it really sucks ...
>
> Seems to me like the obvious approach. But I'm also very interested to
> see what Sean comes up with. So thanks for that, Joan!
>
>
Yes definitely - super cool from Joan. I would have liked to ask our
Designer as well but I am afraid they can't find a timeslot ....




> On 29 October 2014 23:12, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org> wrote:
> > FYI after the multiple suggestions we have someone competent look at
> > logo design, I've asked Sean Barclay, lead UX at Cloudant, to have his
> > team look at working up some possible logo ideas. They have the talent
> > that we don't, and the interest in exploring new designs.  They've also
> > been working up some colour designs and schemes for Fauxton, so it can't
> > hurt to have this work done in the same scope.  Sounds like they'll have
> > time to look at it starting next week.
> >
> > Obviously we are under no obligation to accept anything they do.  But it
> > can't hurt to have them explore it.
> >
> > -Joan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andy Wenk" <andywenk@apache.org>
> > To: dev@couchdb.apache.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 5:57:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> >
> > Alex,
> >
> > it is a serious topic and it should be discussed. I am against taking it
> to
> > the side. I know there are many other topics the community is working on.
> > But this is important also.
> >
> > Noah, I don't think we will have any advantage if we simply remove the
> man
> > from the logo. I prefer to let a designer work on this. How about
> starting
> > a call for new logo? Let's make a small competition and let the community
> > choose the logo out of a preselection. We should for sure find a way to
> > decline the vote for a new logo if it really sucks ...
> >
> > The winner would receive the honour to be the creator of the new CouchDB
> > logo and would be mentioned prominently.
> >
> > What do others think about this idea?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > On 29 October 2014 22:37, Alexander Shorin <kxepal@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Why do you think that following of bad imaginations of the few ones is
> >> the right way to handle problems? Are you sure that removing a relaxed
> >> person won't cause any other branding issues (hi Couchbase!)? Changing
> >> color to blue - looks like we're going to cross Cloudant street.
> >>
> >> I suggest to not rush in this question and leave it as is for now
> >> since it isn't broken, people likes it and there is no urgency on
> >> this. We have more important issues to work on.
> >>
> >> --
> >> ,,,^..^,,,
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> > Hi folks!
> >> >
> >> > (Dropping user@, as this isn't really a topic for that list.)
> >> >
> >> > CouchDB 2.0 is an *obvious* target for a brand refresh. Lets seize it
> >> > if we want to make changes.
> >> >
> >> > I think the complaints are valid, though I baulked at first also. But
> >> > that's because I'm attached to our brand.
> >> >
> >> > It's also important to note that his pose and his haircut gender him.
> >> > (It's clearly a him. For people who might not've been around when we
> >> > adopted this logo, he even has a name. He's called "the dude".) Not to
> >> > mention that he is white.
> >> >
> >> > So yeah. We have a logo with a white dude sitting in a sexually
> >> > suggestive pose. Obviously, nothing was ever meant by it. But this
> >> > certainly isn't an image that reflects the sort of culture that we
> >> > want to build going forward.
> >> >
> >> > I propose we simply remove the person. The image that Paul linked is
> >> > good. I'd be happy with the logo as-is, without the dude. It's a
> >> > fairly minor graphical tweak, and if we time it right, represents an
> >> > evolution of our brand as well as our product.
> >> >
> >> > I'm tempted to suggest a colour change. But that's only to
> >> > differentiate our logo from Couchbase. It's rather unfortunate that
> >> > they chose a logo so similar to ours (recently bringing it even closer
> >> > in terms of colour). Slightly ironic, given Jen's comment. ;)
> >> >
> >> > Blue is nice. :) But then that tempts me to change the name too. I
> >> > mean, if we're ever going to do this, now is the time. It's important
> >> > to note though that we have a very STRONG brand, and changing it in a
> >> > big will be expensive.
> >> >
> >> > Just removing the person from the logo sees like a simple, inexpensive
> >> > change though.
> >> >
> >> > On 28 October 2014 12:52, Jason Smith <jason.h.smith@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> I have been thinking about Brad's point for a long time now. What
> >> exactly
> >> >> is relaxing? Since CouchDB came out, web APIs, NoSQL and JavaScript
> have
> >> >> become [more] mainstream. Today's users are not impressed that they
> can
> >> >> store an unstructured JSON blob, or that they can use JavaScript on
> the
> >> >> server.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am torn about Joan's observations. On the one hand, I'd hate to
> >> >> over-steer, to make a big change because a tiny minority of people
> >> >> interpret a bit of art a particular way. But on the other hand, Joan
> >> would
> >> >> be the first person most people come to with such an issue. Maybe she
> >> has a
> >> >> better perspective; she detects a problem that I can't see.
> >> >>
> >> >> For now though, my provisional position is to agree with Benoit about
> >> the
> >> >> art, and Brad about the tagline. The man thinks he is alone. He is
> doing
> >> >> what people do when they relax. We are spying on that behavior, and
> >> that is
> >> >> what makes it real and convincing. The man is not a sales rep with
a
> >> >> dubious promise of relaxation. He really is relaxing.
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't plan to post again, simply because of bike shedding. I'm fine
> >> with
> >> >> any decision. But I suggest: as long as the tagline is "relax," keep
> the
> >> >> logo. Discuss changing the tagline (and also the logo), and even put
> a
> >> >> project rename on the table while we're here. (This has been
> discussed
> >> >> before, there are some good arguments.)
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Brad Noble <bradn@us.ibm.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Suggestive as it may be, the logo clearly embodies the idea of
> "relax."
> >> >>> Specifics of the image aside, is "relax" what we want people to
> think
> >> of
> >> >>> when they think of CouchDB? To me, the idea that CouchDB is about
> >> >>> relaxation is outmoded. A good thought for the beginnings, but
not
> for
> >> the
> >> >>> long-haul. If not relaxation, then what?
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [image: Inactive hide details for Bryan Green ---10/27/2014 09:19:07
> >> >>> PM---I think it would be interesting just to get rid of the
> >> person]Bryan
> >> >>> Green ---10/27/2014 09:19:07 PM---I think it would be interesting
> just
> >> to
> >> >>> get rid of the person altogether and have some sort of styli
> >> >>>
> >> >>> From: Bryan Green <dbryan.green@gmail.com>
> >> >>> To: dev@couchdb.apache.org, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
> >> >>> Cc: user@couchdb.apache.org
> >> >>> Date: 10/27/2014 09:19 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
> >> >>> ------------------------------
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I think it would be interesting just to get rid of the person
> >> altogether
> >> >>> and have some sort of stylized couch.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Bryan Green aka "lispyone"
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Joan Touzet <wohali@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > At 3 different conferences I've attended in 2014: CloudantCON
> 2014,
> >> >>> > OSCON 2014 and Velocity NYC 2014, I've been approached by
people
> >> >>> > complaining about the CouchDB logo. The argument is that the
logo
> >> looks
> >> >>> > like a man who is posed in a suggestive way, or as one person
put
> it,
> >> >>> > "showing you his crotch and inviting you over."
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > These were not lighthearted expressions of concern to me over
> drinks
> >> -
> >> >>> > they were heartfelt complaints from people who care about
CouchDB
> and
> >> >>> > its image in the open source community.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I must admit I didn't think it was an issue at first, but
like the
> >> >>> > saying goes, once you've seen it, you can't un-see it.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > As a reminder here is our current logo:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >>
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.png
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Or in SVG:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >>
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/couchdb-logo.svg
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > I'd like to propose improving the logo with a new drawing
that
> keeps
> >> the
> >> >>> > same theme - red couch, reclining figure in white - but alters
the
> >> pose
> >> >>> > to be a bit less suggestive. Other suggestions are welcome,
> >> naturally,
> >> >>> > but a redrawn current-style logo probably has the least
> objections.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > Of course, if we agree to such a change, I'll need your help.
I
> can't
> >> >>> > draw, and I'm sure many of the rest of you can't either. If
> you're an
> >> >>> > artist, and you agree, would you consider posting an altered
logo
> in
> >> >>> > reply to this thread that fixes the problem?
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > You can find all of the source files (Adobe Illustrator) at:
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >   https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/couchdb/supplement/logo/
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > -Joan
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Noah Slater
> >> > https://twitter.com/nslater
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andy Wenk
> > Hamburg - Germany
> > RockIt!
> >
> > GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
> >
> >  https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
>
>
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
>



-- 
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!

GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588

 https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc

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