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From Nick North <nort...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Marketing suggestion
Date Mon, 03 Feb 2014 10:34:08 GMT
I'd be in favour of keeping the number of lists small until it becomes clear that some topic
needs to spin off into its own list. While the volume of marketing emails is low, it's not
hard for devs who aren't that interested in marketing to ignore them, just as those who aren't
interested in specific dev topics can ignore those. But it's not something I feel strongly
about.

Nick

> On 3 Feb 2014, at 17:09, Andy Wenk <andy@nms.de> wrote:
> 
>> On 3 February 2014 10:46, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Andy Wenk <andy@nms.de> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 3 February 2014 10:14, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Andy Wenk <andy@nms.de> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 3 February 2014 08:42, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org>wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Wrt marketing plans: yes, but half way between my head, and my
private
>>>>>>> notes. Unfortunately, my private notes also contain things from
>>>>>>> private conversations with people. Major mistake on my part.
Apologies
>>>>>>> to the community.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've just sent an email giving a few people notice that I plan
to
>>>>>>> start moving things over to the wiki. Hopefully over the next
week or
>>>>>>> so I can get all of our existing marketing ideas in a communal
space
>>>>>>> so we can start to discuss it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As for the marketing@ list: great. So what we'll do now is wait
>>>>>>> another day or two. If nobody objects, we can make the list.
(This is
>>>>>>> how we make most of our decisions on the project.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am not sure it's a good idea to have a marketing list. Marketing
>>>>>> should be linked to dev and vice-versa . It's important that marketing
>>>>>> follows dev discussion and that dev follows and interact with the
>>>>>> marketing. Having 2 mailing-lists will create a disconnection. Which
is
>>>>>> good path to the failure in tech. Also due to the low volumes of
mails on
>>>>>> @dev this shouldn't be a problem.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - benoit
>>>>> 
>>>>> hm ... I understand exactly what you mean and I agree, if we would
>>>>> speak of a company with different big departments here. But in our project
>>>>> I think it is totally ok that we have two different lists and the people
>>>>> who are strongly interested in both parts should subscribe both lists.
The
>>>>> advantage imho is to not flood the dev@ list with unrelated stuff ...
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Why do you think it would be different because we are an opensource
>>>> project? If marketing people don't want to follow all devs discussion then
>>>> there is some perspective problem imo. The same for devs that ignore the
>>>> users perspectives. Marketing should be elaborated with all the devs, not
>>>> in a side corner. At least this what we learn in management schools. And
>>>> this is really true for a **neutral**  opensource project which has no
>>>> business perspective (and shouldn't have).
>>>> 
>>>> - benoit
>>> 
>>> I did not mean to see it differently because we are an OpenSource project
>>> but because of the size of the project. I don't think that we will have the
>>> situation, that the marketing activities are going into a different
>>> direction because of having two lists. I still believe that everything is
>>> very transparent. Having more lists does not lead to in-transparencies but
>>> will lead in more focused discussions. The connection between marketing and
>>> development targets is created by the interest people have - and they
>>> should be interested in both and should therefor subscribe both lists ...
>>> if they don't they are not interested in marketing activities (what is ok
>>> for me). But I agree that if no dev will subscribe the marketing list, we
>>> will have the marketing activities in a side corner ...
>> this is the " if they don't they are not interested in marketing
>> activities"  which is problematic. By marketing in a community project, I
>> often mean every actions taken to grow the community. I can't imagine a dev
>> not interested by it. Having a marketing list is also quite uncommon in an
>> opensource projects. But to be more concrete I often take the zeromq
>> project as a template to build a successful community, When you see the
>> mailing-lists attached to the project [1] you only have 2. If you take a
>> recent success in communication, the docker project, this is the same [2].
> 
> Imo this is part of its success. While it's totally fine to multiply the
>> annonces channels, I do think that a community and its members  should act
>> together when it's about core community discussions. Part of these core
>> discussions are:
>> 
>> - dev discussions : features/roadmap/status
>> - community discussions
>> - users discussions about some features
> 
> I can't say too much about how to create a successful community because
> CouchDB is just the second I actively take part. On the other hand I have
> quite a lot ideas how to help doing it. But I am wondering why we then have
> already way more than two lists. I suppose the discussion is coming up
> because you consider
> 
> - we already have too much lists
> - marketing should not be included in the dev@ list (what we are actually
> speaking about)
> 
> I can understand both points very well. But on the other hand I don't have
> the feeling, that having these lists is problematic. But I have subscribed
> to all lists and therefor do not miss anything.  I don't wanna throw "he
> look here is my example" in the discussion. But let me just say, that the
> PostgreSQL project has many many lists and I guess it's working well. So my
> conclusion is first, that each project will find a best working way and
> second the success is partially related to the lists as a great part but
> also to many many other things.
> 
> 
>> Also lot of peopple are already subscribed to more than XXX list, to
>> follow N projetcs daily (customer purpose, survey...). When a project
>> starts to have more than 2 lists it starts to be really annoying to track
>> and quite expensive.
> 
> This is a fair point! I use GMail and filter all incoming list messages and
> give them labels. But I believe if I had 20 more, I would go crazy and miss
> stuff at the end.
> 
> I can fully understand your concerns but on the other hand I don't think
> it's problematic to have a marketing list. So my suggestion is to wait for
> thoughts by other community members ...
> 
> 
>> 
>> - benoit
> 
>> [1] http://zeromq.org/docs:mailing-lists
>> [2] http://www.docker.io/community/
> 
> -- 
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
> 
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
> 
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
> 
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc

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