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Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 18:47:51 +0100
Message-ID: 
 <CAJNb-9rezskmO=YGeWheTaaX0tOerecVFUu=S1rnrjdTUBPXig@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Branch to switch from SpiderMonkey to Node.js
From: Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com>
To: "dev@couchdb.apache.org" <dev@couchdb.apache.org>
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On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 4, 2013, at 11:53 , Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Jason Smith <jhs@iriscouch.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com>w=
rote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> A javascript engine doesn't expose any IO par default. The **framework=
**
>>>> nodejs is, this is all the point. I'm quite interested by the existing
>>>> solutions to sandbox nodejs, do you know some projects that does it?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Correct. I am attempting to build something which satisfies your
>>> description: no i/o; i/o is not even possible.
>>>
>>> *How* is it implemented? Well, it doesn't matter whether we use Node.js=
 or
>>> couchjs/SM or couchjs/v8. What matters is we feel confident about secur=
ity.
>>> And of course, I agree, if we cannot achieve good security, then that i=
s a
>>> show stopper.
>>>
>>> Here is my current plan for sandboxing CouchJS. (Thanks to Isaac for hi=
s
>>> tips.)
>>>
>>> When it is time to evaluate some code:
>>>
>>> 1. Set up an object with safe variable bindings: safe_context
>>> 2. fork()
>>> 3. Child process runs vm.runInNewContext(safe_context)
>>> 4. Child process communicates to the parent over stdio, through the
>>> approved safe_context functions
>>>
>>> The subprocess can also give extra sandboxing, such as chroot() if
>>> available.
>>>
>>> Yes, this causes two processes per instantiation; however I think the
>>> parent might only be short-lived, setting up the security, then exiting=
.
>>> The grandchild can talk to Erlang over stdio.
>>>
>>> That is my plan. No idea how well it will work.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Iris Couch
>>
>>
>>
>> Too much kool-aid imo :)
>>
>> This is not that it can't work. But are you seriously considering to
>> have a main couchjs process maintaining the STDIO channel and spawn a
>> new OS Process for a view (which what does  `vm.runInNewContext`)? The
>> memory and latency cost can became very important, and i don't count
>> the chrooting cost especially if run this context on each indexation
>> batch or shows, lists and views requests. + the extra fds created by
>> each child contexts.
>
> Alternatively, if the above works and is necessary (modulo Klaus=92s
> research), we live with the hit until we get to rewrite the view protocol
> at which point we can make it 1 Erlang process -> 1 node process for
> dispatching -> N Node processes for indexing.

I don't think it is necessary at all to use so many *OS* process at
all for our purpose. And I am really worried by such solution.There is
a reason why people don't try to launch too much OS processes on the
system,  There is a reason why we are using systems like Erlang.

I guess runInContext would work, with a custom `require` function to
include modules (to specifically forbid IO) . According to the doc the
context doesn't share anything, which is what we want. Also if we are
going for node i would prefer to start with a straight forward
solution and not introduce any new behaviours.


>
>
>
>> Anyway, I looked over the week-end and didn't find so may other
>> solutions when it's about nodejs. I read that and maybe `
>> vm.runInContext` [1] with `vm.CreateContext` could work or like Klaus
>> says maybe `vm.CreateScript` though the doc[1] don't say if it s in
>> the same process or not [2]. I guess it is. I'm interested by the
>> solution of providing a secure "require" like suggest Klaus. How would
>> it work?
>
> Yeah, I=92d love to see that too.
>
>
>> I intend to write a straight-forward port of couchjs to use v8 to see
>> how much things it gave us, but it will be just a temporary hac, just
>> good for 1.4 imo.
>
> It=92d be great to have this as a fallback solution! If we eventually can
> do away with all the C code, the better :)

I will work on it this week. I will probably need a second look, my
C++ is rusty.
>
>
>> I also would like to find a solution for the mobile
>> worl and i'm not sure v8 is OK for that yet.
>
> It works fine for Chrome on mobile :)

Until recently it wasn't working on IOS, the support is really new
(chrome on IOS is using webkit). But I think now that we could let
this part to another topic. This is not like the current couchdb can
run on such platforms without deep changes :)


>