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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:22:01 +0100
From: Simon Metson <simon@cloudant.com>
To: dev@couchdb.apache.org
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Subject: Re: Part2: What's up dev? About couchapps.
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Hey Benoit, all, =20

I agree that this isn't about tools. The tools themselves are simple, and=
 the last change to CouchDB that effected CouchApps would be in 0.10.0. W=
hile there are bugs, the tools are relatively stable and usable. I think =
diversity is good here.

There's a lot of bad documentation (e.g. wrong) out there. Examples that =
are out of date using code that is no longer supported. There seemed to h=
ave been a perception for a while that a couchapp had to use evently, for=
 instance, long after evently had ceased development. I'm not sure what t=
he apache community can do to clean up those issues in the wider world (a=
side from notifying owners of broken examples) but we could certainly mak=
e things clear on http://couchdb.apache.org and the wiki.

If possible I would redirect couchapp.org into http://couchdb.apache.org/=
couchapp or similar (as couchdb.org does) and make that a landing page fo=
r building applications using CouchDB. Simple examples in a bunch of lang=
uages using idiomatic code would be good. Highlighting that a web app tal=
king to CouchDB is a simple thing that doesn't need masses of boiler plat=
e code would be nice, too. =20

Mongo got a bunch of press off the back of Meteor (http://www.meteor.com/=
) which isn't much more than what is already offered by CouchApps, just b=
etter packaging (and some nice hot swappable code). If we want to continu=
e down the road of =22CouchDB as an application server=22 then eating our=
 dog food an making =46uton a CouchApp would be a nice start. =20

I'd be wary about decoupling the development of =22app engine like featur=
es=22 from the database, though. There are features that impact on databa=
se behaviour and need to be considered in the bigger picture. That said, =
I don't think I've seen any discussion of new features pertaining to couc=
h apps for some time (and I'd like to=21) and my initial objection depend=
s a lot on what those app features are.

The timeline/release schedule stuff that was discussed in Dublin seems li=
ke a good way to mitigate concerns about different pace between database =
development and app engine work, too. =20

Cheers
Simon

  =20


On Monday, 24 September 2012 at 10:21, Benoit Chesneau wrote:

> Couchapps.
> =20
> This isn't about tools. I think what =40nslater experienced is the lack=
 of
> clear direction coming partly from frustration from some devs, and the
> need for some to act in competition with other tools. Today what is the=

> situation:
> =20
> - couchapp.org (http://couchapp.org) I ask since a long time to have th=
e control on this
> domain so I can put new doc (and not specific to couchapp the tool) .
> Same for the irc channel.
> - couchapp ml even if we said long time ago that this is a generic ml,
> some think that this is the ml for the tool. Which isn't and never
> had. Anyone can speak on it.
> =20
> Also I wouldn't say that the concept is obscur or so. I can say that a
> lot around are using them quietly in their business. Without asking for=

> more.
> =20
> Clearly we need to provide more directions for people. But I would like=

> to keep the diversity in tools. Just like for clients. Let the users
> choose but don't support one more than the other. This is why each time=

> it was discussed on the ml or during events the idea of adding a tool a=
s
> a sub project was abandonned. But we should definitely provide more hel=
p to
> others. A good start would be linking them to the tools and their doc
> if any. Then the users will choose.
> =20
> =46or me couchapp.org (http://couchapp.org) should be a website definin=
g what is a couchapp ,
> how does it works (fundamuntal for shows, lists, ...) then link the use=
r
> to different tools. Each tools have their own usages. =46or users
> couchapp , erica as generic tools, kanso for those who want a
> specific framework, other frameworks around (there are some coming, som=
e
> private...) . Maybe it can also be arecipe place. We should link to
> tother when they speak about couchapps. I'm volounter for that.
> =20
> In summary let take the control back on couchapp.org (http://couchapp.o=
rg), the ml and IRC and
> start to build a communauty feeded by different tools & experiences.
> =20
> =20
> As a couchdb developer perspective I also want to split the couchapp
> engine from the rest so we can improve it quietly and maybe have
> different release cycle too. The couchdb would still embed a stable
> version when it's released as well. It could defenitely speed the
> development and will help to includes more users' oriented features. An=

> app engine need to have a shorter release cycle compared to a database
> obviously.
> =20
> Voil=C3=A0,
> =20
> Hope This mail can launch the discussion and we can start to act. More
> important let's the energy come back.
> =20
> - beno=C3=AEt =20


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