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From "john.tiger" <>
Subject Re: Part2: What's up dev? About couchapps.
Date Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:51:28 GMT
we tried last winter to do a couchapp - gave up after never really 
getting it to work - forget kanso - forget the "garden" thing someone 
mentioned - they are all too complicated

all we wanted was straight forward design docs to load up (no node, no 
python, just vim ...)  and real good docs to go with that

I do believe that couchapp should be a part of the couch release - it's 
both highly integrated and a principal way to use couch - having it 
separate means things get out of sync real fast

just my $.02

On 09/24/2012 04:57 AM, Noah Slater wrote:
> I also want to clarify my two points in this whole discussion.
> You say it's not about the tooling, but that is short sighted. Existing
> CouchApp tooling is fractured and broken. The CouchApp website is the
> epitome of this. I spent the whole weekend trying to install Kanso, with no
> luck, I might add. (Some Node.js incompatibility. I actually gave up.) Saw
> on the mailing list that Kanso's maintainer is absent at the moment. Made
> me re-think using CouchApps for my personal project. And I'm sorry, but if
> I can be put of CouchApps, then I'm sure as hell that regular users are
> being turned away weekly by the sorry state of affairs. So yes, the tooling
> is important. The tooling is decaying, and that sends a strong message out
> to any potential CouchApp developers.
> But the other thing is community. We have a CouchApp community, I know it.
> I just haven't seen it yet. As Benoit points out, there are a lot of people
> probably doing it in private. And small communities forming around specific
> tools, and so on. I think we have an opportunity to not only bring *SOME*
> of the tooling under our roof, but the *WHOLE* community too. Let's bring
> people together.
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Noah Slater<>  wrote:
>> Making Futon a CouchApp would be a great first step.
>> Other good first steps would be trashing and redirecting to
>> c.a.o/couchapp like you say.
>> Also, creating or similar, to indicate a more
>> official, and broad, focus.
>> If we made Futon a CouchApp, how would that work?
>> I appreciate the diversity in CouchApp tools, but what I really want is a
>> dead simple way to do it without external tools.
>> Maybe even if that's just a simplistic reference implementation of a
>> CouchApp uploader that we ship.
>> Something other tools could even hook into maybe?
>> (We could then use this to bootstrap Futon from within the build. Awesome!)
>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Simon Metson<>  wrote:
>>> Hey Benoit, all,
>>> I agree that this isn't about tools. The tools themselves are simple, and
>>> the last change to CouchDB that effected CouchApps would be in 0.10.0.
>>> While there are bugs, the tools are relatively stable and usable. I think
>>> diversity is good here.
>>> There's a lot of bad documentation (e.g. wrong) out there. Examples that
>>> are out of date using code that is no longer supported. There seemed to
>>> have been a perception for a while that a couchapp had to use evently, for
>>> instance, long after evently had ceased development. I'm not sure what the
>>> apache community can do to clean up those issues in the wider world (aside
>>> from notifying owners of broken examples) but we could certainly make
>>> things clear on and the wiki.
>>> If possible I would redirect into
>>> or similar (as does) and
>>> make that a landing page for building applications using CouchDB. Simple
>>> examples in a bunch of languages using idiomatic code would be good.
>>> Highlighting that a web app talking to CouchDB is a simple thing that
>>> doesn't need masses of boiler plate code would be nice, too.
>>> Mongo got a bunch of press off the back of Meteor (
>>> which isn't much more than what is already offered by CouchApps, just
>>> better packaging (and some nice hot swappable code). If we want to continue
>>> down the road of "CouchDB as an application server" then eating our dog
>>> food an making Futon a CouchApp would be a nice start.
>>> I'd be wary about decoupling the development of "app engine like
>>> features" from the database, though. There are features that impact on
>>> database behaviour and need to be considered in the bigger picture. That
>>> said, I don't think I've seen any discussion of new features pertaining to
>>> couch apps for some time (and I'd like to!) and my initial objection
>>> depends a lot on what those app features are.
>>> The timeline/release schedule stuff that was discussed in Dublin seems
>>> like a good way to mitigate concerns about different pace between database
>>> development and app engine work, too.
>>> Cheers
>>> Simon
>>> On Monday, 24 September 2012 at 10:21, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>>>> Couchapps.
>>>> This isn't about tools. I think what @nslater experienced is the lack of
>>>> clear direction coming partly from frustration from some devs, and the
>>>> need for some to act in competition with other tools. Today what is the
>>>> situation:
>>>> - ( I ask since a long time to have
>>> the control on this
>>>> domain so I can put new doc (and not specific to couchapp the tool) .
>>>> Same for the irc channel.
>>>> - couchapp ml even if we said long time ago that this is a generic ml,
>>>> some think that this is the ml for the tool. Which isn't and never
>>>> had. Anyone can speak on it.
>>>> Also I wouldn't say that the concept is obscur or so. I can say that a
>>>> lot around are using them quietly in their business. Without asking for
>>>> more.
>>>> Clearly we need to provide more directions for people. But I would like
>>>> to keep the diversity in tools. Just like for clients. Let the users
>>>> choose but don't support one more than the other. This is why each time
>>>> it was discussed on the ml or during events the idea of adding a tool as
>>>> a sub project was abandonned. But we should definitely provide more
>>> help to
>>>> others. A good start would be linking them to the tools and their doc
>>>> if any. Then the users will choose.
>>>> For me ( should be a website defining
>>> what is a couchapp ,
>>>> how does it works (fundamuntal for shows, lists, ...) then link the user
>>>> to different tools. Each tools have their own usages. For users
>>>> couchapp , erica as generic tools, kanso for those who want a
>>>> specific framework, other frameworks around (there are some coming, some
>>>> private...) . Maybe it can also be arecipe place. We should link to
>>>> tother when they speak about couchapps. I'm volounter for that.
>>>> In summary let take the control back on (
>>>, the ml and IRC and
>>>> start to build a communauty feeded by different tools&  experiences.
>>>> As a couchdb developer perspective I also want to split the couchapp
>>>> engine from the rest so we can improve it quietly and maybe have
>>>> different release cycle too. The couchdb would still embed a stable
>>>> version when it's released as well. It could defenitely speed the
>>>> development and will help to includes more users' oriented features. An
>>>> app engine need to have a shorter release cycle compared to a database
>>>> obviously.
>>>> Voilà,
>>>> Hope This mail can launch the discussion and we can start to act. More
>>>> important let's the energy come back.
>>>> - benoît
>> --
>> NS

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