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From Noah Slater <nsla...@tumbolia.org>
Subject Re: website & jira
Date Tue, 17 Apr 2012 20:26:18 GMT
Cleaned up the wiki page, changed Documentation to Wiki, etc, etc.

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@tumbolia.org> wrote:

> Thanks to Bob for adding Quick Links to the header menu. Getting to JIRA
> is now too quick clicks. (I had added this myself during development but it
> was buggy. I dunno why it is no longer buggy. Very strange!)
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>
>> I have added your Markmail point to the wiki.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@tumbolia.org>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Miles Fidelman <
>>> mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> With all due respect and appreciation for your efforts.... marketing is
>>>> one thing, utility is another.  While there's value to marketing, (IMHO)
>>>> utility counts more.  We're not talking about a magazine ad, we're talking
>>>> about a web site that people have taken some effort to find and go to -
>>>> they're (we're) looking for information - if the information isn't there,
>>>> it doesn't matter how pretty the site is.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've been building websites for clients for the best part of a decade,
>>> so I assure you that I understand your points here. ;) When I said "a
>>> marketing site" I meant that it's primary purpose is to market CouchDB to
>>> new users. Not that we should think of it as a print ad. Trust me, I have
>>> worked with people who do think about websites like this, and I know how
>>> crazy that attitude is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> For evaluators (and I do a lot of software evaluation), the questions
>>>> are:
>>>> - what is this thing
>>>> - what are the details (functionality, architecture, implementation)
>>>> - is the project "alive" (not in terms of a pretty site, but in terms
>>>> of an active community of users and developers) - which implies things that
>>>> change (blog, news, events, mailing lists with lots of activity, bug
>>>> tracker that shows things getting fixed, ....)
>>>> - who's using it
>>>> - details of what's involved in using it (demo, install instructions,
>>>> documentation, some slideshows)
>>>> - a sense of the community (blog, archives, forums, links to related
>>>> sites)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed!
>>>
>>>
>>>> For new users, what counts are documentation, tutorials, FAQs, an
>>>> active and friendly support community.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed, I think we could add a new section. This is already on the wiki.
>>>
>>> http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Website_Design
>>>
>>> I am starting to wonder if anyone is even checking this page! ;)
>>>
>>> No body has added anything to it since I created it, and yet this thread
>>> rages on. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>> For experienced users, updates, detailed documentation, code libraries
>>>> (when users are developing stuff), support for odd problems, ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> This belongs on the wiki for now.
>>>
>>> The website is a single serving website.
>>>
>>> That is intentional, and I'd like to keep it that way.
>>>
>>> The wiki should be our primary focus for detailed information.
>>>
>>>
>>>> For contributors it becomes a matter of technical documentation,
>>>> community, easy-to-access CVS and bugtraq, lists and community....
>>>>
>>>
>>> Contributors should be focusing on the wiki too IMO. The "marketing
>>> site" or "homepage" or whatever you want to call our single serving website
>>> is not a one stop shop for everything to do with CouchDB. It's a primer, an
>>> intro, a landing page, a set of sign posts. Committers should know enough
>>> about the project to be able to use bookmarks, and use the wiki to provide
>>> more in-depth resources/links.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sure, all the better if the stuff looks pretty, but more important that
>>>> things are there and EASY TO FIND (I emphasize this last point as it seems
>>>> to be the primary criticism people are raising.  Most of the other things
>>>> exist, somewhere - it's finding them that's difficult.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just to clarify, it is ONE person who is saying that the JIRA link is
>>> hard to find. And that one person is a committer. It just so happens that
>>> our user focused single serving website has moved his usual "link to get me
>>> JIRA" out of the way, and he's annoyed about it. I can understand that, but
>>> I am also trying to keep his concerns in context.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mind you, I'm more of a function over form kind of guy, and a sample of
>>>> one, but when I lay the mongodb web site next to the couchdb web site
>>>> (since people seem to compare the two pieces of software quite a bit), the
>>>> mongo home page is uglier, but a lot easier to navigate.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The MongoDB website is easier to navigate? Heh. Ours is one page. By
>>> definition, there is no navigation, just scrolling. ;) Perhaps you mean
>>> that the sign posts to other resources are clearer. Again, all we've done
>>> is move our sign posts to the bottom of the page. We are, clearly,
>>> optimising for a specific use case here. Joe Random clicking on a link, and
>>> asking "WTF IS COUCHDB?" We answer that quite well, I think. Or at least,
>>> better than we used to. And there is certainly room for improvement. We
>>> could cram all of our project signposts in to the header, but we would be
>>> sacrificing the simplicity of the site, and the key focus on "WTF IS
>>> COUCHDB?" and "WHERE DO I DOWNLOAD?"
>>>
>>>
>>>> One thing that disturbed me, was a comment that there's no link to the
>>>> markmail archive because it's not "official."  That seems like a rather
>>>> unproductive approach to building and supporting a user community - links
>>>> to other resources should be encouraged, not discouraged - both as a way
to
>>>> make the main site useful, and as a sign that the community is "alive."
>>>
>>>
>>> You have misinterpreted me. "Unofficial" resources are great! But with a
>>> single serving site you have to make some trade-offs in the name of
>>> simplicity. We have, in the design, a single link to the web interfaces for
>>> the mailing lists. So we have, naturally, chosen to link to the official
>>> ASF web interface. The Markmail links deserve a mention, but not here.
>>> There are other places we can promote them.
>>>
>>
>>
>

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