couchdb-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Noah Slater <>
Subject Re: website & jira
Date Tue, 17 Apr 2012 13:58:44 GMT
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Benoit Chesneau <>wrote:

> To be honest I don't care about the color, I don't care about the font
> used. I don't care to have a pretty website or not. I'm not sure I
> like that one. It's trendy for sure. Not my problem here either.

No offence intended, but that you don't care about these things is what
worries me about you wanting to make changes. Our previous website looked
very dated, and the focus of the redesign was to breath some life in to it.
And that very much does include the colour, and the typeface, and all the
other visual elements. So whomever takes over the site should care very
much about these things.

That doesn't mean that your concerns are not valid, but it suggests that
you shouldn't be the one playing around with the design. If you look at the
wiki page I created I said the following. "When adding a comment, please
describe the problem. Do not describe the solution. The solution is
something that the person with the overall vision is tasked with coming up
with. If you provide a solution with your problem, you are confusing the
matter, and limiting the scope of productive discussion."

If we try to evolve the website by having people just randomly change this,
and randomly change that, because some small thing was bothering them, then
we will have website that deteriorates over time. There will be no
consistency to the changes. There will be no single vision that is
informing the approach we take, or informing the decisions we make.

That is why I have added each and every concern you have raised to this
page. Because I hope that someone with an eye for design (someone who cares
about the colours and the typefaces, to use your example) will pick this up
and run with it, and work out what the best way forward is.

> What I care on the other hand, is about the content, and the
> information in. What could have been discussed, and may be fixed in
> the future is which information is important. Who are we targeting.
> There was some mails about that on the ml sometimes ago without real
> decision on that.  Again I'm not talking about a vote or whatever. At
> the end someone has to take a decision. The one that took the lead for
> any reason. I'm pretty sure the website will need some edits (and
> again i'm not speaking about design) in near future following recent
> discussions. But it wasn't the topic of my mails.

Agreed. I have been at the nexus of these discussions for five years now. I
took it upon myself to get involved in launching the redesign of the
website because I felt I cared enough, and because I felt I had enough
knowledge about it. Of course, there were discussions, but they were
primarily between myself and Jan and Yohie, but also with people who are
interested in contributing in the long term. It is my hope that I can reach
out to these people again, now, and that they will jump on board. But this
is a slow process, and a lot if changing at the moment with CouchDB.
Shipping 1.2.0 almost broke me. And I have been taking a little break from
it so that I don't burn out. But I hope you can trust me when I say that
this is not the final edit to the site for another 5 years. I want to see
the website grow. And I want to address all the comments that we receive
about it. But I will stress that I do not think we should be making
alterations for every comment that we received. Knee jerks never made a
good design.

> What I care now, is that i'm not inclined to use the site because I
> don't find the information easily like I used too. And I've found the
> same feedback from some persons around. I listed the points
> previously. I'm now worried that we can't even suggest something is
> wrong. It looks like it for sure.

Of course you can suggest something is wrong! As a long time contributor to
CouchDB, your voice is stronger than most, and of course it is listened to.
All I am asking is that we approach this methodically, and that we do not
think of the website like we think of the code. We're getting by just fine
without a grand architect of CouchDB, though no doubt we could use one. But
a good design is the product of a single vision, and we have yet to find
that person. Again, to stress this point, I am going to be actively trying
to find that person, and I hope you can trust me when I say that. If you
have comments, that is brilliant. Can we please collect these on the wiki
page I made? And can we please try to state, clearly, the problems, and
leave the strategy up to someone else?

> Trust? `Trust` works in both way. And if you don't trust someone
> enough to think you can't discuss about that thing, there is a
> problem. I personally trust you even if we never met and others in the
> team. ANd pretty sure that we all know where to stop between
> bikesheeding and the rest. Am I right, dunno. That's it.

I trust you Benoît. If you ever get elected to the CouchDB PMC you will see
that I was the person who nominated you to be voted in as a committer. ;) I
also value and respect your opinion. I don't disagree with you that the
link to JIRA might need some re-evaluation. I just don't want to jump the
gun, so to speak, in rushing towards one particular solution. I want to
someone else to own the website, and to think about all of the feedback,
and to formulate a single, unified, approach.

> Now to list my issues with the website:
> - easy access to the support (tickets)
> - reading the text is difficult
> - making some links more obvious: mailing list web browsing
> If I'm the only one to find issues about that fine. I will try to
> bookmark the links I need even if I dislike to work that way.

I added all three comments to the wiki page yesterday. I agree with them
too. (I agree with them here because you're stating them as problems, and
not forcing specific solutions.) Hopefully, sooner rather than later,
someone can pick these up and run with them. Until then, let's keep adding
stuff to this wiki page so that our future contributor has an easy time
with this.

I would point out, as has already been pointed out, that this new design
was not intended for the existing contributors to CouchDB. I figure that
other people have bookmarks to JIRA like I do. I very rarely use the
website. But that is because our website is not so much our homepage as it
is our marketing site. It is intended to draw in new users. And indeed,
draw in new contributors. I agree with other people that perhaps we need to
add another section perhaps with a tutorial or something for the new users
to balance our the big focus on getting involved. But the point remains:
this website was not design for you, Benoît. That doesn't mean your
opinions are invalid, or stupid, or that no body cares about them. I think
they are all good observations.

  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message