Perhaps I'm not explaining my expectation well enough. The way I read the algorithm, the basic idea is that you take the weights for each character and concatenate them. then you run throw these representations and do a basic element wise comparison. I know that a and A have the same primary and secondary weights. But they have different tertiary weights. Thus as I read the algorithm (most likely missing the important clause affecting this) then when I compare a and A, A > a. I don't see why any other character is considered. A is fucking bigger than a. If there is a section that says, "Oh, btw, if one string is an exact prefix of the other as defined solely by primary weights, then the prefix sorts first" i would be happy as a pig in shit. On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Patrick Antivackis wrote: > Paul, > > 2009/4/10 Paul Davis > >> I've tried various combinations of UC_CASE_LEVEL, UC_CASE_FIRST, and >> UC_WEIGHT. >> > > This is really not enough. Doing this you only try to say to the collation > that  a<< but still it's an a upper, lower, witha tilde, with an accent or wathever. > All are just variation of A but still A. > > If you look at : > http://www.unicode.org/Public/UCA/latest/allkeys.txt > > and search for : > > 0061  ; [.1141.0020.0002.0061] # LATIN SMALL LETTER A > > > you will see a lot of A definition, but all have the same first element > :1141, they are all the same letter, other are just variation. So compared > to each of them they have an order but compared with an other letter they > all behave the same like an A > > So, now if you want to change order of primary element, you need to use > custom tailoring : > http://userguide.icu-project.org/collation/customization > > And you need to say thing like : > a < A (primary order) > So to simulate ASCII behaviour you should try something like :  a < b < c < ...... > To be honest, i not tried, but that should work > Let me reiterate. I do *not* want A > b. I want A fucking greater than a. Or not greater. But this relation: a < A < aa to me means: a < A < a Am I the only one that finds that just a bit ridiculous? HTH, Paul Davis p.s. the cursing isn't directed at anyone here. I'm just fairly frustrated by that unicode algorithm. > > > > > >> Also, I still don't see anything in this damned collation algorithm >> that explains how A < aa.  And this doesn't fall into the big/biggest >> comparison. The similar case would be Big < biggest. But I don't see >> anything in the damn collation algorithm document that talks about >> ignoring anything after primary weight in the case that one string is >> a prefix. In the various examples that I see I can't find anything >> that would contradict that expectation. >> >> Paul Davis >> >> For reference, the algorithm reference I'm using is this one: >> http://unicode.org/reports/tr10/ >> >> I feel like printing the entire thing just so I can have a book burning. >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Patrick Antivackis >> wrote: >> > By the way, what customization did you try to send to ICU ? >> > >> > 2009/4/10 Paul Davis >> > >> >> Patrick, >> >> >> >> I'm not asking for this relationship: >> >> >> >> a < b < A < B >> >> >> >> Merely: >> >> >> >> a < aa < A >> >> >> >> The thing is that even when I try and specify explicitly that 'A; >> >> should come after 'a' I still can't get the expected "a < aa < A" >> >> behavior. In a nutshell, "Why the hell does the second 'a' alter the >> >> comparison?" >> >> >> >> HTH, >> >> Paul Davis >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Patrick Antivackis >> >> wrote: >> >> > It's quite normal as far as ICU is concerned. >> >> > ICU is about language not about ASCII code. >> >> > In ICU, case is the third element looked for comparison (same level >> than >> >> > circled letter in Nordic languages for example), so not very >> important. >> >> > So when you sort words together, a or A is still an a, so they are >> sorted >> >> > nearby. In ICU you can specify if you prefer a before A or A before a, >> >> but >> >> > not simply a before b before c.... before A before B before C. >> >> > >> >> > To have such behavior (like ASCII) you need to custom ICU in >> specifying >> >> the >> >> > collation you want almost letter by letter. >> >> > It is great for you, but what about Japanese users or Arabic users ?? >> >> > >> >> > So this is definitely the right behaviour of ICU sorting (collation). >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2009/4/9 Brian Candler >> >> > >> >> >> > I've spent entirely too long on this now and I still can't for the >> >> >> > life of me figure out why A < aa. >> >> >> >> >> >> Time for an experimental, black-box approach: >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> >> >> require 'rubygems' >> >> >> require 'restclient' >> >> >> require 'json' >> >> >> >> >> >> DB="http://127.0.0.1:5984/collator" >> >> >> >> >> >> RestClient.delete DB rescue nil >> >> >> RestClient.put "#{DB}","" >> >> >> >> >> >> (32..126).each do |c| >> >> >>  RestClient.put "#{DB}/#{c.to_s(16)}", {"x"=>c.chr}.to_json >> >> >> end >> >> >> >> >> >> RestClient.put "#{DB}/_design/test", <> >> >> { >> >> >>  "views":{ >> >> >>    "one":{ >> >> >>      "map":"function (doc) { emit(doc.x,null); }" >> >> >>    } >> >> >>  } >> >> >> } >> >> >> EOS >> >> >> >> >> >> puts RestClient.get("#{DB}/_design/test/_view/one") >> >> >> ---- >> >> >> >> >> >> This shows the collation sequence to be as follows. >> >> >> >> >> >> {"total_rows":95,"offset":0,"rows":[ >> >> >> {"id":"20","key":" ","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"60","key":"`","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"5e","key":"^","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"5f","key":"_","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"2d","key":"-","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"2c","key":",","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"3b","key":";","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"3a","key":":","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"21","key":"!","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"3f","key":"?","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"2e","key":".","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"27","key":"'","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"22","key":"\"","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"28","key":"(","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"29","key":")","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"5b","key":"[","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"5d","key":"]","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"7b","key":"{","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"7d","key":"}","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"40","key":"@","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"2a","key":"*","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"2f","key":"/","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"5c","key":"\\","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"26","key":"&","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"23","key":"#","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"25","key":"%","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"2b","key":"+","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"3c","key":"<","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"3d","key":"=","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"3e","key":">","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"7c","key":"|","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"7e","key":"~","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"24","key":"\$","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"30","key":"0","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"31","key":"1","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"32","key":"2","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"33","key":"3","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"34","key":"4","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"35","key":"5","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"36","key":"6","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"37","key":"7","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"38","key":"8","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"39","key":"9","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"61","key":"a","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"41","key":"A","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"62","key":"b","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"42","key":"B","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"63","key":"c","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"43","key":"C","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"64","key":"d","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"44","key":"D","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"65","key":"e","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"45","key":"E","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"66","key":"f","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"46","key":"F","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"67","key":"g","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"47","key":"G","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"68","key":"h","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"48","key":"H","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"69","key":"i","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"49","key":"I","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"6a","key":"j","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"4a","key":"J","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"6b","key":"k","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"4b","key":"K","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"6c","key":"l","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"4c","key":"L","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"6d","key":"m","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"4d","key":"M","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"6e","key":"n","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"4e","key":"N","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"6f","key":"o","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"4f","key":"O","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"70","key":"p","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"50","key":"P","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"71","key":"q","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"51","key":"Q","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"72","key":"r","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"52","key":"R","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"73","key":"s","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"53","key":"S","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"74","key":"t","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"54","key":"T","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"75","key":"u","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"55","key":"U","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"76","key":"v","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"56","key":"V","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"77","key":"w","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"57","key":"W","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"78","key":"x","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"58","key":"X","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"79","key":"y","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"59","key":"Y","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"7a","key":"z","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"5a","key":"Z","value":null} >> >> >> ]} >> >> >> >> >> >> I've never seen this sequence before. It's not even EBCDIC :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Adding aa into the pot gives: >> >> >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> {"id":"61","key":"a","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"41","key":"A","value":null}, >> >> >> {"id":"X","key":"aa","value":null}, >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >> As you say, that is most bizarre. >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >