Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-couchdb-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 18563 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2009 21:29:44 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (140.211.11.2) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 8 Mar 2009 21:29:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 14257 invoked by uid 500); 8 Mar 2009 21:29:43 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-couchdb-dev-archive@couchdb.apache.org Received: (qmail 14224 invoked by uid 500); 8 Mar 2009 21:29:43 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@couchdb.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@couchdb.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@couchdb.apache.org Received: (qmail 14213 invoked by uid 99); 8 Mar 2009 21:29:43 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:29:43 -0700 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=10.0 tests=SPF_NEUTRAL X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: neutral (nike.apache.org: 83.97.50.139 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of jan@apache.org) Received: from [83.97.50.139] (HELO jan.prima.de) (83.97.50.139) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:29:31 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.6] (e178194190.adsl.alicedsl.de [::ffff:85.178.194.190]) (AUTH: LOGIN jan, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by jan.prima.de with esmtp; Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:28:25 +0000 Message-Id: <32465D40-F186-4A7F-8B52-B1FE56BEF81C@apache.org> From: Jan Lehnardt To: dev@couchdb.apache.org In-Reply-To: <5b666c2e0903081424s3a1a385blc74a7df49e1e7caa@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd. Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:29:10 +0100 References: <7060483c0903080904q6d0f7ee2ha48271264cfdd6cb@mail.gmail.com> <5b666c2e0903081223n67f629f8ve8b9b4878baf247a@mail.gmail.com> <7557e99f0903081339x45c1f636q83b449a05f5eee5b@mail.gmail.com> <5b666c2e0903081417t669370fbrfc140ec37a735da7@mail.gmail.com> <5b666c2e0903081424s3a1a385blc74a7df49e1e7caa@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org Dave, I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through: > I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing > it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing > ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including > competitors (of which we hope to have many!) > > Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in > the next few days. That should address all you raise here, no? Cheers Jan -- On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote: > Jan, > > Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the =20= > name for > commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an =20 > Apache > project. It really is that simple. > > You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave the =20= > name to > the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to > ownership of the project and will > and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a =20 > hinderance, > but that was your decision. > > In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a =20 > large > group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your =20 > company > and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any =20= > real > scale. > > Again just my .02=80. > > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi =20= > wrote: > >> Jan, >> >> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered =20 >> Apache as >> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache, =20 >> partially I >> suppose from the name >> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with =20 >> many of >> the ideas from Jini. >> >> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since =20= >> it was >> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and =20 >> reflect the >> spirit of Apache in it's >> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look =20= >> at >> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have =20= >> done >> and look to do something similar. >> >> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position =20 >> commercially >> taking this approach. >> >> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this =20 >> thing >> gets forked and flounders. >> >> Again, just my .02=80 >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: >> >>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email), >>> >>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as =20= >>> I see >>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion >>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my >>> response. >>> >>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: >>>> >>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also >>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this =20= >>>>>> type of >>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid >>>>> the same mistakes. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Jan, >>>> >>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our >>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that =20 >>>> allows >>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what =20= >>>> IBM >>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most >>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web >>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM =20 >>>> Cloudscape". >>>> >>> >>> I have no experience with any of these projects. >>> >>> >>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects =20= >>> in >>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen =20= >>>> as a >>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral =20 >>>> grounds. >>>> >>> >>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with =20 >>> CouchDB >>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a =20 >>> commercial >>> background. >>> >>> >>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm =20= >>> not >>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some >>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are =20 >>>> likely >>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones >>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no. >>>> >>> >>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming >>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to >>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here =20 >>> proves >>> we mean it :) >>> >>> >>> You are >>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, =20= >>>> pay >>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress >>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their =20= >>>> own >>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and =20 >>>> branding. >>>> >>> >>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the =20 >>> company. >>> >>> >>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it >>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires =20= >>>> this >>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the =20 >>>> project >>>> as you are the core developers. >>>> >>> >>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC >>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the =20 >>> ratio >>> shifting towards the community in the future. >>> >>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy. >>> >>> What other issues are there? >>> >>> >>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on >>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized >>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to >>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own >>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your =20 >>>> worth - >>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life >>>> even more difficult. :) >>>> >>> >>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same =20 >>> position for >>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company >>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have >>> even more time to contribute to the project :) >>> >>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void >>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and =20 >>> anything >>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in =20= >>> open >>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB >>> community would not be working so well. >>> >>> >>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I =20 >>> suggest >>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later =20= >>>> down >>>> the road. >>>> >>> >>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all >>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source. >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> Jan >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Regards >> >> Dave Butler >> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org >> >> Also on Skype as butlerdi >> >> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html >> >> >> = ********************************************************************** >> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they >> are addressed. 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