From dev-return-3246-apmail-couchdb-dev-archive=couchdb.apache.org@couchdb.apache.org Sun Mar 08 21:28:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-couchdb-dev-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 17892 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2009 21:28:58 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (140.211.11.2) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 8 Mar 2009 21:28:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 13646 invoked by uid 500); 8 Mar 2009 21:28:57 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-couchdb-dev-archive@couchdb.apache.org Received: (qmail 13607 invoked by uid 500); 8 Mar 2009 21:28:57 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@couchdb.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@couchdb.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@couchdb.apache.org Received: (qmail 13596 invoked by uid 99); 8 Mar 2009 21:28:57 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:28:57 -0700 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=10.0 tests=SPF_NEUTRAL X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: neutral (nike.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [83.97.50.139] (HELO jan.prima.de) (83.97.50.139) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:28:46 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.6] (e178194190.adsl.alicedsl.de [::ffff:85.178.194.190]) (AUTH: LOGIN jan, TLS: TLSv1/SSLv3,128bits,AES128-SHA) by jan.prima.de with esmtp; Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:28:25 +0000 Message-Id: From: Jan Lehnardt To: dev@couchdb.apache.org In-Reply-To: <5b666c2e0903081417t669370fbrfc140ec37a735da7@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd. Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 22:27:49 +0100 References: <20090308153847.GA29574@tumbolia.org> <7060483c0903080904q6d0f7ee2ha48271264cfdd6cb@mail.gmail.com> <5b666c2e0903081223n67f629f8ve8b9b4878baf247a@mail.gmail.com> <7557e99f0903081339x45c1f636q83b449a05f5eee5b@mail.gmail.com> <5b666c2e0903081417t669370fbrfc140ec37a735da7@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.930.3) X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:17, Dave butlerdi wrote: > A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered =20 > Apache as > River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache, =20 > partially I > suppose from the name > change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with =20 > many of > the ideas from Jini. I understand that the we need to be cautious to not create a similar =20 situation, but we're not Sun, we don't have a majority to drive this project and =20= we have no interest in not getting the best for CouchDB. I don't really see =20 how the example applies. > I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since =20 > it was > founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and =20 > reflect the > spirit of Apache in it's > meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at > http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have =20 > done and > look to do something similar. > > I am certain that you will end up in a much better position =20 > commercially > taking this approach. > > It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this =20 > thing gets > forked and flounders. The last the paragraphs, I couldn't agree more. Cheers Jan -- > > Again, just my .02=80 > > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: > >> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email), >> >> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I =20= >> see >> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion >> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my >> response. >> >> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote: >> >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: >>> >>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive. >>>>> >>>> >>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB? >>>> >>>> >>>> I also >>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this =20= >>>>> type of >>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end. >>>>> >>>> >>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid >>>> the same mistakes. >>>> >>> >>> Jan, >>> >>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our >>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows >>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM >>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most >>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web >>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM =20 >>> Cloudscape". >>> >> >> I have no experience with any of these projects. >> >> >> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in >>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen =20= >>> as a >>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral =20 >>> grounds. >>> >> >> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB >> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a =20 >> commercial >> background. >> >> >> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm =20= >> not >>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some >>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely >>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones >>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no. >>> >> >> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming >> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to >> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here =20 >> proves >> we mean it :) >> >> >> You are >>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay >>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress >>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their =20= >>> own >>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding. >>> >> >> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the =20 >> company. >> >> >> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it >>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires =20 >>> this >>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the =20 >>> project >>> as you are the core developers. >>> >> >> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC >> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the =20 >> ratio >> shifting towards the community in the future. >> >> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy. >> >> What other issues are there? >> >> >> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on >>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized >>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to >>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own >>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth - >>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life >>> even more difficult. :) >>> >> >> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same =20 >> position for >> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company >> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have >> even more time to contribute to the project :) >> >> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void >> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and =20 >> anything >> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in =20 >> open >> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB >> community would not be working so well. >> >> >> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest >>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later =20 >>> down >>> the road. >>> >> >> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all >> issues of meritocracy, naming and source. >> >> >> Cheers >> Jan >> -- >> >> >> > > > --=20 > Regards > > Dave Butler > butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org > > Also on Skype as butlerdi > > Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html > > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. 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