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From Jan Lehnardt <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Date Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:27:49 GMT

On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:17, Dave butlerdi wrote:

> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered  
> Apache as
> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache,  
> partially I
> suppose from the name
> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with  
> many of
> the ideas from Jini.


I understand that the we need to be cautious to not create a similar  
situation,
but we're not Sun, we don't have a majority to drive this project and  
we have
no interest in not getting the best for CouchDB. I don't really see  
how the
example applies.


> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since  
> it was
> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and  
> reflect the
> spirit of Apache in it's
> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at
> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have  
> done and
> look to do something similar.
>
> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position  
> commercially
> taking this approach.
>
> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this  
> thing gets
> forked and flounders.

The last the paragraphs, I couldn't agree more.

Cheers
Jan
--



>
> Again, just my .02€
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>
>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I  
>> see
>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>> response.
>>
>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also
>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed  of this  
>>>>> type of
>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jan,
>>>
>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM  
>>> Cloudscape".
>>>
>>
>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>
>>
>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen  
>>> as a
>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral  
>>> grounds.
>>>
>>
>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a  
>> commercial
>> background.
>>
>>
>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm  
>> not
>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>
>>
>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here  
>> proves
>> we mean it :)
>>
>>
>> You are
>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their  
>>> own
>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>>>
>>
>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the  
>> company.
>>
>>
>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires  
>>> this
>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the  
>>> project
>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>
>>
>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the  
>> ratio
>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>
>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>
>> What other issues are there?
>>
>>
>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>
>>
>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same  
>> position for
>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>
>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and  
>> anything
>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in  
>> open
>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>> community would not be working so well.
>>
>>
>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later  
>>> down
>>> the road.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
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