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From Dave butlerdi <butle...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Date Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:40:29 GMT
Cheers

Dave

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:

>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:29, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
>
>  Dave,
>>
>> I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through:
>>
>>  I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
>>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>>
>>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>>> the next few days.
>>>
>>
>> That should address all you raise here, no?
>>
>
> Should have been "Does that address all issues you raise here?"/
>
> Sorry if it sounded snappy. My standard non-native-speaker-disclaimer
> applies.
>
> Cheers
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
>> Cheers
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote:
>>
>>  Jan,
>>>
>>> Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the name
>>> for
>>> commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an Apache
>>> project. It really is that simple.
>>>
>>> You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave the name
>>> to
>>> the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
>>> ownership of the project and will
>>> and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a hinderance,
>>> but that was your decision.
>>>
>>> In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a large
>>> group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your company
>>> and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any real
>>> scale.
>>>
>>> Again just my .02€.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <butlerdi@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Jan,
>>>>
>>>> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered Apache
>>>> as
>>>> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache, partially I
>>>> suppose from the name
>>>> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with many
>>>> of
>>>> the ideas from Jini.
>>>>
>>>> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since it
>>>> was
>>>> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and reflect
>>>> the
>>>> spirit of Apache in it's
>>>> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at
>>>> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have done
>>>> and look to do something similar.
>>>>
>>>> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position commercially
>>>> taking this approach.
>>>>
>>>> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this thing
>>>> gets forked and flounders.
>>>>
>>>> Again, just my .02€
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I see
>>>>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>>>>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>>>>> response.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed  of
this type
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>>>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
>>>>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what
IBM
>>>>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>>>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>>>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>>>>>
>>>>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen
as a
>>>>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
>>>>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a
>>>>> commercial
>>>>> background.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
>>>>>
>>>>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>>>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>>>>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>>>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>>>>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>>>>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here proves
>>>>> we mean it :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are
>>>>>
>>>>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately,
pay
>>>>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>>>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their
own
>>>>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the
>>>>> company.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>>>>
>>>>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires
this
>>>>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
>>>>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>>>>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the ratio
>>>>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What other issues are there?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>>>>
>>>>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>>>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick
to
>>>>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>>>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth
-
>>>>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>>>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same position
>>>>> for
>>>>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>>>>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>>>>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>>>>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and anything
>>>>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in open
>>>>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>>>>> community would not be working so well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
>>>>>
>>>>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later
down
>>>>>> the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>>>>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Jan
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Dave Butler
>>>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>>>
>>>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>>>
>>>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Dave Butler
>>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>>
>>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>>
>>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Regards

Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org

Also on Skype as butlerdi

Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html


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