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From Jan Lehnardt <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Date Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:29:10 GMT
Dave,

I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through:

> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>
> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
> the next few days.

That should address all you raise here, no?

Cheers
Jan
--


On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote:

> Jan,
>
> Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the  
> name for
> commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an  
> Apache
> project. It really is that simple.
>
> You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave the  
> name to
> the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
> ownership of the project and will
> and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a  
> hinderance,
> but that was your decision.
>
> In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a  
> large
> group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your  
> company
> and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any  
> real
> scale.
>
> Again just my .02€.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <butlerdi@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Jan,
>>
>> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered  
>> Apache as
>> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache,  
>> partially I
>> suppose from the name
>> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with  
>> many of
>> the ideas from Jini.
>>
>> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since  
>> it was
>> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and  
>> reflect the
>> spirit of Apache in it's
>> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look  
>> at
>> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have  
>> done
>> and look to do something similar.
>>
>> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position  
>> commercially
>> taking this approach.
>>
>> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this  
>> thing
>> gets forked and flounders.
>>
>> Again, just my .02€
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>>
>>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as  
>>> I see
>>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>>> response.
>>>
>>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also
>>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed  of this 

>>>>>> type of
>>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jan,
>>>>
>>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that  
>>>> allows
>>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what  
>>>> IBM
>>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM  
>>>> Cloudscape".
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>>
>>>
>>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects  
>>> in
>>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen  
>>>> as a
>>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral  
>>>> grounds.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with  
>>> CouchDB
>>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a  
>>> commercial
>>> background.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm  
>>> not
>>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are  
>>>> likely
>>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here  
>>> proves
>>> we mean it :)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are
>>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately,  
>>>> pay
>>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their  
>>>> own
>>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and  
>>>> branding.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the  
>>> company.
>>>
>>>
>>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires  
>>>> this
>>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the  
>>>> project
>>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the  
>>> ratio
>>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>>
>>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>>
>>> What other issues are there?
>>>
>>>
>>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your  
>>>> worth -
>>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same  
>>> position for
>>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>>
>>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and  
>>> anything
>>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in  
>>> open
>>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>>> community would not be working so well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I  
>>> suggest
>>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later  
>>>> down
>>>> the road.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Jan
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards
>>
>> Dave Butler
>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>
>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>
>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
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