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From Jan Lehnardt <...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Date Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:35:47 GMT

On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:29, Jan Lehnardt wrote:

> Dave,
>
> I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through:
>
>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so  
>> hearing
>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>> the next few days.
>
> That should address all you raise here, no?

Should have been "Does that address all issues you raise here?"/

Sorry if it sounded snappy. My standard non-native-speaker-disclaimer
applies.

Cheers
Jan
--

>
> Cheers
> Jan
> --
>
>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote:
>
>> Jan,
>>
>> Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the  
>> name for
>> commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an  
>> Apache
>> project. It really is that simple.
>>
>> You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave  
>> the name to
>> the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
>> ownership of the project and will
>> and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a  
>> hinderance,
>> but that was your decision.
>>
>> In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a  
>> large
>> group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your  
>> company
>> and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any  
>> real
>> scale.
>>
>> Again just my .02€.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <butlerdi@gmail.com>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan,
>>>
>>> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered  
>>> Apache as
>>> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache,  
>>> partially I
>>> suppose from the name
>>> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with  
>>> many of
>>> the ideas from Jini.
>>>
>>> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since  
>>> it was
>>> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and  
>>> reflect the
>>> spirit of Apache in it's
>>> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going,  
>>> look at
>>> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have  
>>> done
>>> and look to do something similar.
>>>
>>> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position  
>>> commercially
>>> taking this approach.
>>>
>>> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this  
>>> thing
>>> gets forked and flounders.
>>>
>>> Again, just my .02€
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>>>
>>>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as  
>>>> I see
>>>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>>>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>>>> response.
>>>>
>>>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <jan@apache.org>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also
>>>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed  of  
>>>>>>> this type of
>>>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan,
>>>>>
>>>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that  
>>>>> allows
>>>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what  
>>>>> IBM
>>>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM  
>>>>> Cloudscape".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask  
>>>> projects in
>>>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was  
>>>>> seen as a
>>>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral  
>>>>> grounds.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with  
>>>> CouchDB
>>>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a  
>>>> commercial
>>>> background.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company,  
>>>> I'm not
>>>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are  
>>>>> likely
>>>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>>>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>>>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here  
>>>> proves
>>>> we mean it :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are
>>>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately,  
>>>>> pay
>>>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here:  
>>>>> Wordpress
>>>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within  
>>>>> their own
>>>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and  
>>>>> branding.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the  
>>>> company.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires  
>>>>> this
>>>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the  
>>>>> project
>>>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three  
>>>> PMC
>>>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the  
>>>> ratio
>>>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>>>
>>>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>>>
>>>> What other issues are there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick  
>>>>> to
>>>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your  
>>>>> worth -
>>>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same  
>>>> position for
>>>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>>>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>>>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>>>
>>>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>>>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and  
>>>> anything
>>>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in  
>>>> open
>>>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>>>> community would not be working so well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I  
>>>> suggest
>>>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later  
>>>>> down
>>>>> the road.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>>>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jan
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Dave Butler
>>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>>
>>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>>
>>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Regards
>>
>> Dave Butler
>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>
>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>
>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>
>>
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>
>


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