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From Robert Dionne <dio...@dionne-associates.com>
Subject Re: Transactional _bulk_docs
Date Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:49:29 GMT
Thanks Jan,

   good read. Now I know PMC is not related to PMS :)

   It's interesting to know Apache was truly a collaborative project  
from the beginning and this informs it's philosophy. So there are all  
these roles and so forth, yet each PMC is allowed to make it's own  
rules, within some guidelines.

    I still think mailing list threads too unwieldy. For major design  
changes it might be useful to post a one page summary on the WIKI, as  
a strawman for the emails to focus on. Of course running code is also  
an excellent design document.

regards,

Bob


Robert Dionne
Chief Programmer
dionne@dionne-associates.com
203.231.9961



On Feb 5, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Jan Lehnardt wrote:

>
> On 5 Feb 2009, at 14:05, Robert Dionne wrote:
>> I'm not very familiar with the ASF "process", excuse my ignorance,  
>> but I find the IRC enormously useful and find mailing list threads  
>> can be too unwieldy.
>
> Check out http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html for
> more about The ASF Way/.
>
> Cheers
> Jan
> --
>
>
>> I guess it's because I'm not a fan of top down design. I see the  
>> code itself as the design, and the debugging, reworking, and  
>> documenting of the code as the construction phase.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Robert Dionne
>> Chief Bittwiddler
>> dionne@dionne-associates.com
>> 203.231.9961
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 6:14 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> [sending second time, as I see my first is stuck in moderation,  
>>> and I want to reply in a timely manner]
>>>
>>> Sure, ideally.
>>>
>>> But you can't have "everyone" together at the same time on IRC,  
>>> where at the ASF, we define "everyone" to be, well, "everyone",  
>>> not you and the 4 others on the PMC.
>>>
>>> I see 579 people on the user list.  I see 294 people on the dev  
>>> list.  Just focusing on the dev list, that's 290 people, or 98.6%  
>>> of people supposedly interested in CouchDB development, that had  
>>> zero opportunity to see, review and participate in the  
>>> discussion.  Further, there's now zero chance that any future  
>>> project participant can look back to understand design decision  
>>> and philosophy.  No institutional memory.  Your goal, besides  
>>> building a great software project, should be to get the community  
>>> to the point where you can step back and do other things w/o  
>>> material effect on the community, and that requires information  
>>> like this to be somewhere accessible.
>>>
>>> And unlike Ted, I don't agree that a pointer to an IRC log is  
>>> sufficient to represent a "done decision", and he may not have  
>>> meant that anyway.  Sure, I can see a chat starting on IRC about  
>>> a topic, but I'd hope that one person would force the move from  
>>> IRC to the mail list - and at that point, maybe posting a pointer  
>>> to the *initial* discussion log would be useful.  And after that,  
>>> discussion is on the mail list.
>>>
>>> I think IRC logs are a very poor substitute to mail traffic (and  
>>> yes, I grok the downside of async communications).  A primary one  
>>> reason that they are very "in the moment" - if you are in the  
>>> conversation, it's easy to stay in, but after, when things cool  
>>> and the context of the moment isn't there, it's neigh  
>>> impossible.  You also can't hit reply and quote a piece for  
>>> others to see and discuss, further broadening the discussion.
>>>
>>> What got me engaged on this wasn't the decision itself (only  
>>> because it was a secret decision), but -like Ted - the mode of  
>>> operation.  It seemed that a very dedicated, engaged and  
>>> interested community member had to privately petition the PMC for  
>>> redress on a technical decision that none of us had any awareness  
>>> of, nor a chance to review.  And IMO, from a guy that probably  
>>> should be a committer and PMC member to boot!
>>>
>>> (By the way - from my count, not all PMC members are even on the  
>>> PMC's private@ list, so I have *no clue* where project private  
>>> discussion - like new committer candidates - are even discussed....)
>>>
>>> geir
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ideally yes, but real time communication with everyone together  
>>>> is damn useful.
>>>>
>>>> -Damien
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Uh, project decisions are supposed to be made in the public  
>>>>> mailing lists...
>>>>>
>>>>> Ted
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This decision was discussed and made on IRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Damien
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:26 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> can you point me to a reference to where the PMC made this  
>>>>>>> decision?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm interested in the subject for it's own sake, and I'm also
 
>>>>>>> interested in figuring out where decisions are made in this 

>>>>>>> project, since I didn't see this one go by on a mail list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> geir
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:13 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geir, there was a decision made by the PMCs to change the
 
>>>>>>>> transaction model to support partitioned databases. It is
a  
>>>>>>>> change I am currently working on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Damien
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 8:46 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and original question #2?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> geir
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Antony Blakey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/02/2009, at 12:02 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) where is this being forwarded from ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I sent it to the PMC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Antony Blakey
>>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>> CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
>>>>>>>>>> Ph: 0438 840 787
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A Buddhist walks up to a hot-dog stand and says,
"Make me  
>>>>>>>>>> one with everything". He then pays the vendor and
asks for  
>>>>>>>>>> change. The vendor says, "Change comes from within".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


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