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From Ted Leung <>
Subject Re: Transactional _bulk_docs
Date Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:20:24 GMT
On Feb 6, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Damien Katz wrote:

>> This may hint at one of my biggest concerns here, the balkanization  
>> of the PMC from the rest of the community.  I don't think I've ever  
>> seen a project where the dividing line between the PMC and the rest  
>> of the community was so often and brightly drawn.
> Please tell me more about this brightly drawn line. We should get  
> rid of it.

I don't know if this is what Geir means, but there is a lot of use of  
the letters PMC in messages on the list.   Much more than usual, in my  
experience.    That may sound like a small thing, but that kind of  
small thing, repeated over time,  can lead to a highly stratified  
community, which is undesirable.

>> There's a comment later in this thread where Chris describes his  
>> role as ... well, for lack of better words, your handler, to shield  
>> you from the community.  Things like that feed my perception.  More  
>> on that later.
>> I have an idea :
>> 1) Stop coding.
> No. The changes I am making need to be made regardless. They  
> encompass much more than just the transaction change.

Is there a way to commit some of the unrelated changes over time?   I  
find that it's easier to understand a series of  small patches as  
opposed to large ones.

> Then why are you being so combative and insulting to our team?

Damien, I am sorry that this has ended up at such a contentious place.

> The only complaint is that I didn't run some stuff over the mailing  
> list before writing code.

I think that part of why we are having contention is wrapped up in the  
sentence above.   When I read this sentence, I feel that you are being  
dismissive of the use of mailing lists.   When I originally chimed in  
on this thread it was in response to your statement that the decision  
was made in IRC:

On Feb 4, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Damien Katz wrote:

> Ideally yes, but real time communication with everyone together is  
> damn useful.
> -Damien
> On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>> Uh, project decisions are supposed to be made in the public mailing  
>> lists...
>> Ted
>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>> This decision was discussed and made on IRC.
>>> -Damien

Honestly, I felt that your response was dismissive of my concern.    
The ASF has minimal requirements of projects but one of the key  
requirements is that decisions be made on the public mailing lists, in  
a way that invites participate of an ever growing community.   There  
is probably no quicker way for a project to invite scrutiny than to  
have something seem not quite right in this area.   Time and again  
problems in this area have proved to lead to problems with a  
project.    I was, and am, responding to something that experience  
tells me is a warning sign.   I am not trying to disparage you or the  
project by doing this.    The reason I am writing this now is that I  
want to be sure that I am conveying how important this issue is, not  
only to, but to the the foundation as a whole.

> I haven't checked in anything yet, and I won't until we've had more  
> discussion, review and testing. This problem is a non-issue,

I look forward to seeing the code, and the ensuing discussion.


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