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From Jesse <purplecabb...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Date Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:01:17 GMT
Good observations Julio, we should definitely talk to stack-overflow about
the merged tags.

Robert, you didn't send the pull request back to cordova/cordova-discuss,
so no one could see it.  I have done so here:
https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/pull/35




@purplecabbage
risingj.com

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:29 AM, julio cesar sanchez <jcesarmobile@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Joe said:
>
> "I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
> PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions."
>
> It's curious that Ionic has it's own tag, with about the same number of
> questions that Cordova tag, but it's not on any of the lists (and it's not
> because all Ionic questios are tagged with Cordova tag too, in fact, most
> of them aren't)
>
> But when people is using Phonegap and add the Phonegap tag to the question,
> stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova tag because they decided long
> time ago that they were synonyms, so you can't use Phonegap tag and we
> can't be sure if they are using Cordova or Phonegap unless they tell it on
> the question.
>
> I think that's a mistake by stack overflow part, because people using
> phonegap doesn't follow same workflow that people using cordova as Phonegap
> docs are different, they mostly use the developer app to test, and phonegap
> users might have different problems.
>
> There are a lot of questions about  "xxxx-xxxx 3rd party plugin isn't
> working on my app", and the problem is they are using the phonegap
> developer app. But they don't mention that they are using phonegap, they
> just add the phonegap tag, and stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova
> tag. They don't mention that they are using the Phonegap developer app
> neither because they think that's the way of running Phonegap apps. I see
> at least one of those everyday on stack overflow or some other forums.
>
> I've filed a few issues on the phonegap docs page so they can make clearer
> to users that when using the phonegap developer app they are not really
> running their app, and they have some issues open to list the developer app
> limitations. Once they are addressed, maybe the developers are a bit
> happier.
>
> But I'm not sure what to do about the stack overflow synonym, should we
> tell them to remove the synonym so people can use Phonegap and Cordova as
> different tags?
>
>
>
>
> 2016-03-29 8:23 GMT+02:00 Robert Posener <rposener8@gmail.com>:
>
> > I think I have created a discussion, but it is not showing up... yet
> > another frustrations!
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > Regards
> > *Rob Posener*
> > 0419 012 627
> >
> > On 29 March 2016 at 16:48, Parashuram N <panarasi@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request  you
> to
> > > create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so that
> we
> > > could start following up on specific issues there ?
> > >
> > > From: Robert Posener <rposener8@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
> > > To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >
> > > Gerday all,
> > > Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a 6-page
> > > contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them in
> > the
> > > attachment to this email.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Rob Posener
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Rob Posener
> > > 0419 012 627
> > >
> > > On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond.  We
> don't
> > > just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the
> > expectation.
> > >
> > > I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually
> > solve
> > > the problem in a timely manner.  We've had both extremes of discussing
> a
> > > problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
> > >
> > > As for getting there, I have no idea.  Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <rakatyal@microsoft.com
> > > <mailto:rakatyal@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs
> > could
> > > > be candidates for improvement.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > > nikhilkh@microsoft.com>]
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > >
> > > > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > > > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what
> are
> > > > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge
> impact?
> > > >
> > > > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have
> > made
> > > > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of
> our
> > > > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> > > > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs
–
> > > > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other
> tools
> > > like
> > > > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
> > > >
> > > > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had
> somewhat
> > > > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > > > [3]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> > > >
> > > > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > csantana23@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I agree Joe
> > > > >
> > > > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you
> once
> > a
> > > > >day.
> > > > >
> > > > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > > > >
> > > > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not
> every
> > > > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> > > > >
> > > > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what
> people
> > > > >are having problems on.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> BTW: The last one was a joke.  But in all honesty, we should
all
> > > > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with
> our
> > > > >> respective products/distributions.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > >> > <rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:rsalva@microsoft.com>>
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies
> > that
> > > > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options.
They
> > have
> > > > an "other"
> > > > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely
driven
> > by
> > > > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Ryan J. Salva  |  Principal PM Manager Visual Studio
Tools for
> > > > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > > >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > > > >> >> To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> > > > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > >> >> <rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:rsalva@microsoft.com>>
> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic
is “% of
> > > > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language
or tech but
> > have
> > > > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.”
Clearly, it’s
> > > > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior
also doesn’t
> > > > reflect their stated intent.
> > > > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads
has actually
> > > > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear
on… I’m
> just
> > > > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any
list.  I'd
> be
> > > > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers"
section
> > of
> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> trending
> > > > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions,
which
> > indicate
> > > > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely)
or are
> just
> > > > >> >> giving
> > > > >> up.  I
> > > > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while,
mostly
> > > > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like
ionic or
> > > > something else.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on
Cordova,
> and
> > > > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva  |  Principal PM Manager Visual Studio
Tools
> for
> > > > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > > >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > > > >> >> > To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:
> dev@cordova.apache.org
> > >>
> > > > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
developers
> > happy?
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <
> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:purplecabbage@gmail.com>>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask
them what they
> > like!
> > > > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell
you what they
> > > > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler
if they
> > liked.
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > +1
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list
and that
> it
> > > > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded.  I also wonder
what would
> > happen
> > > > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked
about how
> > > > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar
sanchez
> > > > >> >> > > > <jcesarmobile@gmail.com<mailto:jcesarmobile@gmail.com>>
> > > > >> >> > > wrote:
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > > Visual Basic            79.5%
> > > > >> >> > > > WordPress              74.3%
> > > > >> >> > > > Matlab                     72.8%
> > > > >> >> > > > Sharepoint              72.1%
> > > > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript            71.0%
> > > > >> >> > > > LAMP                      68.7%
> > > > >> >> > > > Cordova                  66.9%
> > > > >> >> > > > Salesforce               65.4%
> > > > >> >> > > > Other                       61.5%
> > > > >> >> > > > Perl                         61.3%
> > > > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > > >> >> > > > Objective-C             60.2%
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >>
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > > > >> >> > > ck
> > > > >> >> > >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > > > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > >%7cf296b880892e437222
> > > > >> >> > >
> > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > > > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > > > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > > > >> >> > > ve
> > > > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
> <
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > >
> > > > >> %7c342aabb
> > > > >> >> > > 95
> > > > >> >> > >
> > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> >> > > ------
> > > > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > <mailto:dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > <mailto:dev-help@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  B
> > KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > > >   [  X  ܚX K  K[XZ[
> > > >    ] ][  X  ܚX P  ܙ ݘK \ X  K ܙ B  ܈ Y  ] [ۘ[    [X[     K[XZ[
> > > >    ] Z [    ܙ ݘK \ X  K ܙ B
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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