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From Jim Jagielski <...@jaguNET.com>
Subject Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:10:57 GMT
Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
typical response to why Github cannot be canon:

	http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html

Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.

> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> 
> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> 
> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>> 
>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>> but I
>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>> (some
>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>> anyways).
>>> 
>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>> constructive.
>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>> sake
>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>> others
>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>> negative towards.
>>> 
>>> Another angle:
>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>> views are
>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>> make it
>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>> makes
>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>> contribute to
>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>> people
>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>> tone
>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>> 
>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>> (we
>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>> up.
>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>> instance.
>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>> collaboration
>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>> but
>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>> we
>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>> 
>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>> issue
>>> trackers count as "data"?
>> 
>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> of use.
>> 
>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>> that's
>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>> is
>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>> why *I*
>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>> Stack
>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>> tone
>>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a personal
>>>> attack
>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these comments
>>>> only
>>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't agree
>>>> with me,
>>>> because we're still here.
>>>> 
>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>> Ross
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.  There are
>>>> clearly
>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>> fight
>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>> project, and
>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>> propose
>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>> rules
>>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret that we
>>>> donated
>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>> complained
>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>> since
>>>> we
>>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>> who
>>>> feel
>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going to
>>>>> convince
>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>> since
>>>> your
>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Joe
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>> like
>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred
way
>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to
create
>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough problems
>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would love
to
>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
to
>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.  One
>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies
and
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
problem
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand
this.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the
mobile web
>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications
and most
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know
all the
>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an
idea of the
>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and
I don't think
>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps
can be as
>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what
I try to do
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most
is the
>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's
a few
>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps
they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those
first apps
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that
smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps
on modern
>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once
that
>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left".
That changed
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much
better because
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay
out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps
just port
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering
that Android
>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's
much to do
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks
<
>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take
is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are
Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command
driven
>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically
improving
>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known,
I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel
<
>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations
and most of the
>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself)
are knowing
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything
about the
>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the
asynchronos
>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely
ok, but if anything
>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then
they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some
JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't
name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't
see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem
making
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile
Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality
of most Cordova
>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting
a Cordova
>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going
to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing
it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going
away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property
that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called the Drupal
of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took
it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal
project).  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey,
since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just make sure that
what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari,
Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow
Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce           73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic        72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab                 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint         62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP                    62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl                        59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova               58.8%
>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript       54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other                    57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with
the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing
to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is?
 Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these
are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard
developers express
>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no problem - unclear
question led to
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem is really about
creating native
>>>> apps
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI has a quality
problem
>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set up development
environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning material
(documentation,
>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
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