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From Raymond Camden <raymondcam...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Date Thu, 09 Apr 2015 14:31:35 GMT
Heh no worries - I'm comfortable being the last person on Earth who
apparently still likes jQM. :)

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:15 AM, julio cesar sanchez
<jcesarmobile@gmail.com> wrote:
> Raymond, sorry for the j***** ****** part, I know you like it and write
> about it.
> The truth is I haven't tried the 1.4.5 version yet, I use 1.3.2 at work and
> I don't feel it soo slow (I use fastClick too and we target android 4 or
> greater)
>
> Just was talking about the questions I read on stackoverflow and *most* of
> the question where they say "my cordova app is slow" the say they are using
> that framework, but of course they don't mention the device where they are
> testing, the version of the framework or the android version. I've seen *a
> few* question where they ask "my cordova app is slow and I'm using ionic
> framework", it's not always the framework fault.
>
>
>
> 2015-04-09 15:52 GMT+02:00 Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com>:
>
>> Julio this is a great report/list of current state of dev ux for developers
>> using cordova in what ever form.
>>
>> I would be sad if this list get's buried in the mailing list. I would like
>> to have place in some place (i.e. google doc) to brain storm actions to
>> improve on some of those items.
>>
>> At least for me I have being doing some thinking lately in this space.
>>
>> I think one things to me is that I would like to see cordova have zero
>> friction to open collaboration.
>>
>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>
>> 1. Use Github Issues
>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
>> mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>
>> Ability to have a more open conversation, even cross referencing other open
>> source project that can collaborate with cordova like npm, react-native,
>> etc.. to solve common problems once with open standards and open source.
>>
>> potential for using issues tags, for auto taggin pr with apache icla,
>> questions, etc..
>>
>> 2. Use Github Wiki
>> Use Github Wiki instead of wiki.apache.org/cordova. Easier to read, easier
>> to find and read for users. Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web
>> hooks, or some other automated process.
>>
>> 3. Use Github Pages
>> Cordova.io already is built with jekyll. Easier to maintain and easier to
>> atract people to help out on blogs, ages, Docs
>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github webhook or other automated
>> process.
>>
>> 4. Simplify our message on cordova.io to hey! we do open source go to
>> Github for everything.
>>
>> I'm not sure but the only rule that Apache imposes is that if Gihub decides
>> to go down (;-p) or disappear the project can continue to work and data and
>> history is preserved.
>>
>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > As a survey it's always biased.
>> >
>> > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
>> clearly
>> > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
>> > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
>> > anything relative to the mobile.
>> >
>> > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
>> are
>> > native :)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Stéphane Bachelier,
>> > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> >
>> > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > >:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> > >
>> > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
>> > about
>> > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
>> done
>> > > and appreciate it.
>> > >
>> > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
>> > > only one.
>> > >
>> > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
>> native
>> > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
>> > apps I
>> > > work on!
>> > >
>> > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> > >
>> > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com>:
>> > >
>> > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
>> > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
>> reasons:
>> > > >
>> > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago.
>> > Even
>> > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang
>> in
>> > > > people's minds.
>> > > >
>> > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
>> > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
>> > it's
>> > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
>> > > >
>> > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using
>> > CSS
>> > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
>> way
>> > > of
>> > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it.
I
>> > > think
>> > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
>> > > making
>> > > > top-notch apps.
>> > > >
>> > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
>> iOS-style
>> > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
>> > expect
>> > > a
>> > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
>> this.
>> > > >
>> > > > Tyler
>> > > >
>> > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score
is
>> low
>> > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
>> default
>> > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
>> Bash,
>> > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and
no
>> > > > >full
>> > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
as
>> > > > >Visual
>> > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
>> > results
>> > > > >improve.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
>> > > > >using
>> > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
>> > about
>> > > > >the
>> > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
>> > > > >bridge.
>> > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
>> > > > >with
>> > > > >> plugins.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
special
>> is
>> > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
which
>> are
>> > > > >not
>> > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that
:-)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of
the
>> > > > >cordova
>> > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Daniel Toplak
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
>> > > > >everyone can
>> > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications
>> > is
>> > > > >> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting a Cordova application
>> > from
>> > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing
it and
>> > if
>> > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively
because
>> > > > >that's
>> > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon,
and
>> both
>> > > > >those
>> > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create
a
>> shitty
>> > > > >> website.  We've been called the Drupal of development for
a
>> reason,
>> > > > >and at
>> > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because
I
>> think
>> > > > >Drupal
>> > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project).  I don't
think
>> we
>> > > > >should
>> > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers
are
>> > > > >terrible
>> > > > >> anyway.  We should just make sure that what we're releasing
isn't
>> > > > >terrible.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> > > > ><leo.treggiari@intel.com>
>> > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
(
>> > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > > > >> > Salesforce           73.2%
>> > > > >> > Visual Basic        72.0%
>> > > > >> > Wordpress         68.2%
>> > > > >> > Matlab                 65.6%
>> > > > >> > Sharepoint         62.8%
>> > > > >> > LAMP                    62.2%
>> > > > >> > Perl                        59.2%
>> > > > >> > Cordova               58.8%                  **************
>> > > > >> > Coffeescript       54.7%
>> > > > >> > Other                    57.3%
>> > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
but have
>> > not
>> > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is?  Here are some possible
>> answers.
>> > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
>> looking
>> > > > >for
>> > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> frustration
>> > > > >with
>> > > > >> Cordova:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > *        There is no problem - unclear question led
to the
>> answer
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > *        The problem is really about creating native
apps in
>> > > > >JavaScript +
>> > > > >> > HTML5
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > *        Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability
|
>> > > > >usability |
>> > > > >> > reliability)
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o   Too hard to set up development environment
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o   The command CLI is too complicated
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o   Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
>> books)
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o   Too many bugs
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o   Changes too frequently
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Leo
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > Tyler Freeman
>> > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> > > >
>> > > > Sent from mobile
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Cordialement,
>> > >
>> > > Voltaire José-luc
>> > > Directeur Technique
>> > > Netdevices
>> > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carlos Santana
>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>



-- 
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM

Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden

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