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From Raymond Camden <raymondcam...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Date Thu, 09 Apr 2015 16:55:24 GMT
What benefits does Apache provide that outweigh the negatives of not
being able to use a bug tracker that more people may prefer? And I
don't ask that sarcastically - I'm honestly curious. I'd assume
*anywhere* Cordova existed would have benefits and negatives, but if
others feel that Apache's benefits do not outweigh the negatives, is
it time to open a new thread/discussion about that?

I know I've seen - seemingly to me - odd issues with the Apache rules
on the Ripple list too. Some of the policies seem truly weird. I
assume there is deep reasoning behind each rule, but if Apache is
*not* flexible and this group decides it would be more beneficial to
move, why not just do so?




On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
>> participation.
>>
>>
> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.  There are clearly
> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight
> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and
> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>
>
>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they are
>> and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose changes
>> that work.
>>
>>
> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules
> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
>
>
>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. Instead
>> it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some individuals
>> who certainly do not fit into this category, but their voices are usually
>> drowned out.
>>
>>
> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret that we donated
> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained
> about so many times by our community members who have followed us since we
> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and the people who feel
> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going to convince
> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your
> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the
> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't
> forked yet.
>
> Joe
>
> Ross
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>
>> Joe,
>>   Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the
>> same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>
>> Marcel,
>>    I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to
>> Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to
>> see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that
>> there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <csantana23@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>> > >
>> > > 1. Use Github Issues
>> > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> > > Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
>> > > mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be at Apache hate
>> GitHub
>> > with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough problems just
>> > getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would love to dump JIRA
>> and
>> > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>> > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
>> > our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation,
>> to
>> > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community
>> they
>> > > should still continue to interface in Github.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
>> > would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
>> > everything again like when Nitobi existed.  One thing that I think we
>> don't
>> > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
>> these
>> > stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the ASF cared about
>> such
>> > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > As a survey it's always biased.
>> > > >
>> > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
>> > > clearly
>> > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They
>> > think
>> > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
>> > > > anything relative to the mobile.
>> > > >
>> > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of
>> them
>> > > are
>> > > > native :)
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
>> > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> > > >
>> > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > > > >:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>> details
>> > > > about
>> > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
work
>> > > done
>> > > > > and appreciate it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
I am
>> > the
>> > > > > only one.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good
as
>> > > native
>> > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
for
>> the
>> > > > apps I
>> > > > > work on!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com>:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the
graphics
>> > and
>> > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
>> > > reasons:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw
3 years
>> > ago.
>> > > > Even
>> > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
still
>> > hang
>> > > in
>> > > > > > people's minds.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
buttery
>> > > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit
views,
>> but
>> > > > it's
>> > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended
>> > using
>> > > > CSS
>> > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
my
>> whole
>> > > way
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
of
>> > it. I
>> > > > > think
>> > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
that
>> for
>> > > > > making
>> > > > > > top-notch apps.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
their
>> > > iOS-style
>> > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android
users
>> > > > expect
>> > > > > a
>> > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to
do about
>> > > this.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Tyler
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that
the score
>> is
>> > > low
>> > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users
and the
>> > > default
>> > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional
- Git
>> > > Bash,
>> > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development,
and
>> > no
>> > > > > > >full
>> > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
this and
>> > as
>> > > > > > >Visual
>> > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
survey
>> > > > results
>> > > > > > >improve.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>> > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> > > > > > >wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most
of the
>> > developers
>> > > > > > >using
>> > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are
knowing
>> nothing
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > >the
>> > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about
the
>> > JS->Native->JS
>> > > > > > >bridge.
>> > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>> > communitcation
>> > > > > > >with
>> > > > > > >> plugins.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if
anything
>> > special
>> > > is
>> > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have
a problem.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>> which
>> > > are
>> > > > > > >not
>> > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone
of that
>> :-)
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real
power of the
>> > > > > > >cordova
>> > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
developers
>> > happy?
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
because
>> > > > > > >everyone can
>> > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>> > applications
>> > > > is
>> > > > > > >> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting a Cordova
>> application
>> > > > from
>> > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up
re-writing it
>> > and
>> > > > if
>> > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing
it natively
>> > because
>> > > > > > >that's
>> > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any
time soon, and
>> > > both
>> > > > > > >those
>> > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone
can create a
>> > > shitty
>> > > > > > >> website.  We've been called the Drupal of development
for a
>> > > reason,
>> > > > > > >and at
>> > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
because I
>> > > think
>> > > > > > >Drupal
>> > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project).
 I don't
>> > think
>> > > we
>> > > > > > >should
>> > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most
developers
>> are
>> > > > > > >terrible
>> > > > > > >> anyway.  We should just make sure that what we're
releasing
>> > isn't
>> > > > > > >terrible.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> > > > > > ><leo.treggiari@intel.com>
>> > > > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer
Survey (
>> > > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > > > > > >> > Salesforce           73.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Visual Basic        72.0%
>> > > > > > >> > Wordpress         68.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Matlab                 65.6%
>> > > > > > >> > Sharepoint         62.8%
>> > > > > > >> > LAMP                    62.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Perl                        59.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Cordova               58.8%              
   **************
>> > > > > > >> > Coffeescript       54.7%
>> > > > > > >> > Other                    57.3%
>> > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language
or tech but
>> > have
>> > > > not
>> > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is?  Here are
some possible
>> > > answers.
>> > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true,
but rather
>> > > looking
>> > > > > > >for
>> > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers
express
>> > > frustration
>> > > > > > >with
>> > > > > > >> Cordova:
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > *        There is no problem - unclear question
led to the
>> > > answer
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > *        The problem is really about creating
native apps in
>> > > > > > >JavaScript +
>> > > > > > >> > HTML5
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > *        Cordova CLI has a quality problem
(learnability |
>> > > > > > >usability |
>> > > > > > >> > reliability)
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o   Too hard to set up development environment
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o   The command CLI is too complicated
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o   Not enough learning material (documentation,
articles,
>> > > books)
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o   Too many bugs
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o   Changes too frequently
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > Leo
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Tyler Freeman
>> > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Sent from mobile
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Cordialement,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Voltaire José-luc
>> > > > > Directeur Technique
>> > > > > Netdevices
>> > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Carlos Santana
>> > > <csantana23@gmail.com>
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carlos Santana
>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
>>



-- 
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM

Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden

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