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From Brian LeRoux...@brian.io>
Subject Re: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:17:03 GMT
being donated my guess the cost was installation and maintenance? anyhow,
now that the goal posts have been moved to logs I'm fairly certain they'd
open those to us as well (I'll find out)

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as VP
> Infra has the details.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Brian LeRoux<mailto:b@brian.io>
> Sent: ‎4/‎10/‎2015 8:53 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Github, again.
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
> github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>         http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >> or
> >> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >> >
> >> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
now,
> >> >>> but I
> >> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >> >>> (some
> >> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >> >>> anyways).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >> >>> constructive.
> >> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> the
> >> >>> sake
> >> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are
being
> >> >>> negative towards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another angle:
> >> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >> >>> views are
> >> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the
ASF"
> >> >>> make it
> >> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> just
> >> >>> makes
> >> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >> >>> contribute to
> >> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >> >>> people
> >> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >> >>> tone
> >> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >> >>> (we
> >> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set
one
> >> >>> up.
> >> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >> >>> instance.
> >> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >> >>> collaboration
> >> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >> >>> but
> >> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> that
> >> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but
do
> >> >>> issue
> >> >>> trackers count as "data"?
> >> >>
> >> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >> >> of use.
> >> >>
> >> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >> >>> that's
> >> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<
> >> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
it
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring
to (and
> >> >>>>> why *I*
> >> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't
in the
> >> >>>>> Stack
> >> >>>>> Overflow survey).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based
on the
> >> >>>> tone
> >> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a
> personal
> >> >>>> attack
> >> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these comments
> >> >>>> only
> >> >>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't
agree
> >> >>>> with me,
> >> >>>> because we're still here.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Joe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<
> >> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings
no
> additional
> >> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
contributions
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>> participation.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.
 There are
> >> >>>> clearly
> >> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've
had to
> >> >>>>> fight
> >> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with
this
> >> >>>>> project, and
> >> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
leave.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things
are the way
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with
people to
> >> >>>>>> propose
> >> >>>>>> changes that work.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >> >>>> rules
> >> >>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing
just
> that.
> >> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging
(there are
> >> >>>>>> some
> >> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category,
but
> their
> >> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret
that we
> >> >>>> donated
> >> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has
been
> >> >>>>> complained
> >> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
us
> >> >>>>> since
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and
the people
> >> >>>>> who
> >> >>>> feel
> >> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going
to
> >> >>>>> convince
> >> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >> >>>>> since
> >> >>>> your
> >> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking
various
> parts
> >> >>>>> of
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle
that we
> >> >>>>> haven't
> >> >>>>> forked yet.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> >> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
happy?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Joe,
> >> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what
we want,
> while
> >> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face
:-)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently
can you
> talk
> >> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million
cordova
> >> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use
github with
> the
> >> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving
in
> place
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of
Github.
> >> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR
anyway.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest
and preferred way
> >> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github
web hooks to create
> >> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments.
we already doing
> >> >>>>>>>> this
> >> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that
be at Apache
> >> >>>>>>> hate
> >> >>>>>> GitHub
> >> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have
enough
> problems
> >> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.
 I would love
> to
> >> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move
to the Apache
> >> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made
it less
> >> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an
Apache
> neckbeard.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move
out from Apache
> >> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should
not affect the
> >> >>>>>>>> community
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this
way, us
> leaving
> >> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because
we'd be allowed
> to
> >> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi
existed.  One
> >> >>>>>>> thing
> >> >>>>>>> that I think we
> >> >>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the
ASF policies and
> >> >>>>>>> how
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that
the ASF cared
> >> >>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>> such
> >> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this
more clearly.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >> >>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before
the 1.x. The
> problem
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers
don't understand this.
> >> >>>>>>>>> They
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application
in 21 days".
> >> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript,
the mobile
> web
> >> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile
applications and most
> >> >>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>> them
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B
B5A4 BFC2
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire
<
> >> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought
we don't know all the
> >> >>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have,
at least, an idea of
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >> >>>>>>>> done
> >> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I
use work and I don't
> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile
web apps can be as
> >> >>>>>>>>>> good as
> >> >>>>>>>> native
> >> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and
that's what I try to do
> >> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we
appreciate!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman
<
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >> >>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception
the most is the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs
Native. Here's a few
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off
Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> years
> >> >>>>>>> ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since
then, those first apps
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >> >>>>>>> hang
> >> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard
enough for that smooth,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible
to get 60fps on modern
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >> >>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an
article once that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >> >>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties
like "left". That changed
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >> >>>>>> whole
> >> >>>>>>>> way
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and
reacts so much better because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>> it. I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova
docs to lay out tips like
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions.
Some apps just port
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without
considering that Android
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> users
> >> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm.
Not sure there's much to do
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>> this.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT,
Michael Brooks <
> >> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting
survey. My take is that the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> low
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants
are Windows users and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> default
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows
is extremely unconventional -
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal
command driven
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >> >>>>>>> no
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team
is dramatically improving
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >> >>>>>>> as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes
more well known, I hope those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >> >>>>>>>>> results
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08
AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in
some situations and most of the
> >> >>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova
developers itself) are knowing
> >> >>>>>> nothing
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the
hood, or anything about the
> >> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything
about the asynchronos
> >> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this
is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >> >>>>>>> special
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes
wrong, then they have a problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that
there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >> >>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices.
No I don't name anyone of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>>>>> :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that
they don't see the real power
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy
UI's.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8.
April 2015 17:56
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova
have a problem making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>> happy?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated
form of Mobile Development,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and
the quality of most Cordova
> >> >>>>>>> applications
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If
you're inheriting a Cordova
> >> >>>>>> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> from
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're
probably going to end up
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android
shop, re-implementing it
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >> >>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable
with.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with
that.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks
aren't going away any time
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >> >>>>>>>> both
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the
same property that anyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called
the Drupal of development for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called
that, I took it as an insult
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited
a bad Drupal project).  I
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say
in a survey, since most
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just
make sure that what we're
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >> >>>>>>> isn't
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at
8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from
a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >> >>>>> ).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce        
  73.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic      
 72.0%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab            
    65.6%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint        
62.8%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP              
     62.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl              
         59.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova           
   58.8%
> >> >>>>> **************
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript      
54.7%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other             
      57.3%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing
with the language or tech
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest
in continuing to do so.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the
problem is?  Here are some
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting
that any of these are true, but
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >> >>>>>>>> looking
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those
who have heard developers express
> >> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no
problem - unclear question led to
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> answer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem
is really about creating native
> >> >>>> apps
> >> >>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI
has a quality problem
> >> >>>> (learnability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set
up development environment
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI
is too complicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning
material (documentation,
> >> >>>> articles,
> >> >>>>>>>> books)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>

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