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From Brian LeRoux...@brian.io>
Subject Re: Github, again.
Date Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:20:08 GMT
Jim, I'm not an antagonist. The reframing and scare quoting is not
appreciated. If I didn't see the value of the ASF I would not have proposed
incubation, pursued graduation compliance, and even stayed after hostile
members attack me personally on and off list intermittently for the past
three years and still running today!

I also do not appreciate being openly mocked by you and others externally
(yes it gets back to me!) but the good news is most people I respect
understand the issues with toxic communication and CoC was a good step in
fixing that.

At some point I'd love to see enforcement of it.

I'm not such a loser as to go to ApacheCon just to be a dick and indeed I
look forward to that pint and finding some level of reasonable discourse.
Lets end this thread. I look forward to talk f2f in Austin about
provenance, release automation, release distribution and whether or not it
is a good idea for board members should have a >1 term.

Respectfully,
Brian


On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:

> Not at all. I simply state that, imo, your antagonism towards
> the ASF colors your ability to be "unbiased" in this discussion,
> even when people "correct" your mistakes. I don't see how
> statements such as "typically boogyman stuff" and "shot down of course"
> and "likelyhood of these scare scenarios" as helping to drive the
> conversation at all, since it strongly implies that the reasons
> and rationale behind them are baseless, "existential" things
> and not actual risks that people actually care about.
>
> You may feel that some of these wants are "acceptable risks"...
> Thankfully, there are those who understand those risks better
> and are working to help Cordova *avoid* them, rather than
> rush into them based on inaccurate data.
>
> I'm more than willing to discuss this further over a pint
> at ApacheCon.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very
> professional
> > non answer dodge there Jim!
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
> >> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
> >> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
> >> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
> >> to listen.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github
> entp
> >>> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
> >> despite
> >>> github offering to donate to apache.
> >>>
> >>> Now maybe this is possible?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>       http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >>>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >>>>> (code).
> >>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> >> Code)
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
> that
> >>>>> most
> >>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <gorkem.ercan@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
> now,
> >>>>>>>> but I
> >>>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit
> later
> >>>>>>>> (some
> >>>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>>>>> constructive.
> >>>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> sake
> >>>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>>>>> others
> >>>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are
> being
> >>>>>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>>>>> views are
> >>>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the
> ASF"
> >>>>>>>> make it
> >>>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> >> just
> >>>>>>>> makes
> >>>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>>>>> contribute to
> >>>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> >> email
> >>>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> >> Apache'ers
> >>>>>>>> (we
> >>>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set
> one
> >>>>>>>> up.
> >>>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their
> shared
> >>>>>>>> instance.
> >>>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we
> complained,
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> >> (although
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> >> that
> >>>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>>>>> issue
> >>>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> >> foundation
> >>>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow
> GitHub
> >>>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> >> terms
> >>>>>>> of use.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
> it
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to
> (and
> >>>>>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in
> the
> >>>>>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure.  If you're looking to make a
> >> personal
> >>>>>>>>> attack
> >>>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead.  On this list, these
> comments
> >>>>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views.  It's clear that people don't
> agree
> >>>>>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> >> additional
> >>>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
> contributions
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.  There
> are
> >>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
> leave.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the
> way
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> >> whose
> >>>>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid.  That could work too.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> >> that.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there
> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> >> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF.  I regret that
> we
> >>>>>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
> us
> >>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>> started this thing.  However, we're stuck here now, and the
> people
> >>>>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so.  You're never going to
> >>>>>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> >> parts
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> JS community for years.  Honestly, I think it's a miracle that
> we
> >>>>>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎4/‎9/‎2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> >> while
> >>>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> >> talk
> >>>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> >> place
> >>>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive  data on Apache using github web hooks to
> create
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed.  The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns.  We already have enough
> >> problems
> >>>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub.  I would love
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the
> Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> >> neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> >> leaving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.  One
> >>>>>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users.  If I thought that the ASF
> cared
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more
> clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <stephane.bachelier@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> >> problem
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand
> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> >> web
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and
> most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210  2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> >> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to
> do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> >> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better
> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that
> Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
> unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if
> anything
> >>>>>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a
> problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS
> frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible.  If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website.  We've been called the Drupal of development
> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project).  I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <leo.treggiari@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce           73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic        72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress         68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab                 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint         62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP                    62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl                        59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova               58.8%
> >>>>>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript       54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other                    57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is?  Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *        Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o   Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>> <csantana23@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>

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